blake

Dell - sorry to join the thread so late, but it does look like the Rennlist community has thought through every option!

IMHO, you need to keep the GT3. End of story. If you "downgrade" to a less impressive track car, no doubt your driving will improve - but I'd argue that you will miss the horsepower and the dialed-in feel of your dream car.

Do you remember that Harley commercial that was on TV a few years back where a grandfather is talking to his grandkids on the front porch and a Harley drives by? He then starts telling them about his younger years and how he alwasy wanted to buy a Harley, but instead put the money into aluminum siding.

That drove home the point to me - do it while you can, and don't look back. That is now my mantra!

Congrats again on becoming a father (soon). It will be awesome, believe me!

-B

LVDell

Thanks Blake. As I said already, I agree that the car "can" mask skill (or lack of it) b/c of the platform. But at the same time you still are gaining tremendous skill behind the wheel if that is truly what you are after. As long as you approach it with the mindset of getting better rather than being faster, then the whole low v hi hp debate goes into the crapper. Lap times come with trying to get better rather than trying to get faster. The latter is where incidents happen for the most part.

karlooz

you're not crazy dell. i am in the same camp. i can't justify risking a high $$$$ play thing. i can afford to get a gt3 now but i have decided not to. i wouldn't be able push the car (to my ability) because of the high $$$ looming over my head. that's why i have my throw away-able 996. it's a D car/C prepped car so you can go club racing if the bug hits. i can use cup car suspension parts. engines are cheap (relative to the gt3). i can get a gt3 as a daily driver but i truly think it's a waste as it NEEDS to be tracked. next DD driver for me will be a comfortable GT car like a TT or 997S. some people can afford to risk it... i can't

85Gold

I don't track my GT3, AutoX and Street only. For the track I got an E46M3 and spent over 24k in mods for the OLOA and HPDE/TT I have almost as much invested in my M3 as the GT3 is worth at this time. I still feel that I can push the M3 harder @ the track, as I am not worried about the cost of leaving it @ the track. By the way, I don't give up that much over a GT3 with the M3. At a PCA HPDE @ CMP my co-driver was running 4 sec a lap faster in the M3 than 2 instructors in GT3's all of us on street tires.

Peter

boqueron

Dell,

I understand your concern. Lately I track with a group of Gt3 and 964RS owners that rent the tracks for their group and hire proffesional drivers. Many times we drive together with racing cars. It's not at all like racing but it's getting more and more "competitive"... A good friend of mine - similar lap times - just rolled over in front of me with his car. He races and, sitting next to him, coaching, was a one time F3 spanish champion driver.

I allways think that , when ( not if ) , I will have a serious hit, I will shift to another - less expensive - car.

I have another friend that bought , what we call a "speedcar" , which is a smal chassis with a motorcycle engine in it . Something like a Caterham, more like an ARiel Atom. It costed him....25.000 $ second hand ! Those cars are currently winners of the spanish Mountain Races. When something brakes, it is 1/5th of the cost of a GT3 Repair.... Very fast. It can run 2/3 seconds faster than a GT3 on a twisty track.

BUT .... It looks dangerous, small, and it's not a Porsche...

I have thought of a 944 , a 964, a M3... The "Speedcar" could possibly be my final choice.

Insurance in Spain for tracking is unaffordable..

Sorry if I can not be of any help... I share the same doubts..

TD in DC

High hp and nice car do go hand in hand, and the combination means you have to work harder to learn.

The real place to learn is when you are pushing the limits of yourself and the car. You learn more from approaching the limits gently (and maybe even exceeding them a little, but not so much to be unsafe) than you do when you make 100 "clean" laps. For example, I learn more from little errors like the one in the video, where I am increasing my entry speed and working on trailbraking, than I do in my "fast" laps. My entry speeds now are faster than many who DE with me . . . http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...18686626720996 I don't think I would have the stones to do that in an expensive car, although you certainly could.

The reason why it is so much harder to learn quickly, and in a safe manner, in a high Hp modern car like a GT3 is that you will be going so fast at the limit that it will be scary/not as safe.

Can you learn as much in a GT3? Absolutely! Is it harder to learn as much as quickly in a GT3? I would bet my house on it.

When I am in my low HP car, I have to push so much harder than you do in your GT3 to keep up with people and to not get passed (and I am not competitive in the least ), and it is easier for me to get to the limit with my 15 x 8 rims and tires than it is with the massive rubber you guys are able to put down. Also, since I am not as worried about it being pretty, I can push harder still.

I can certainly understand wanting to have a GT3 for a DE car. No question. Hell, I want one. But do not underestimate for a minute the advantages that someone gains over you in terms of ease of learning when they jump into a low hp momentum car. There really is no comparison.

I used to think I was the man when it came to braking. I mean, I could outbrake everyone in my 996. What's the big deal? Then I jumped into a car that has no ABS. Wow. I didn't know squat. Worse yet, I didn't even know that I did not know. Now, I can modulate and brake with the best of them, I do not flatspot tires, and I do not need ABS to "assist" me. When I get back into my modern car, I am that much better. All I am saying is that you should not underestimate for a second the value of jumping into a n/a 944, a SWB lh, or even an SC. Beginning and intermediate drivers WILL learn faster than they would in a GT3, unless you are a phenom and I frankly don't know very many people who are.

LVDell

You are a great help, as has everybody. To know that I wasn't the only one thinking crazy like this is good know.

I totally agree Todd. I think the problem is (as I stated) is that once you hit the crack pipe it damn near impossible to stop or at least move down the speed ladder. I think the two most important things I can do this coming year are (1) get insurance to relieve some of the stress; and (2) get professional instruction. This is something I have planned for and budgeted for next spring. Then I can really know what I have to learn and what the car can take.

Phokaioglaukos

Speaking of parenthood, my wife just sent me this exchange in an e-mail:

Wife: Why do you have to act like you’re annoyed at my very existence?

Daughter: I’m a teenager, Mom.

Wife: But you’re not just any teenager. You’re Elena. You should be better than that.

Elena: <eyeroll>

Back on topic: insure the GT3 for the track and enjoy it. If and when you decide you want to club race, let me know because by then my analysis will probably be complete and I will tell you what I did!

smlporsche

Dell-
TD said it better than I as to my reason to flogg the S2. One other point to make is that although the guys in the 3's are quicker down the straights and can easily blow us away it is another story under braking and cornering. There the difference really comes down to the driver and for me that's where the fun begins.
Once I feel that I have truly gotten all I can out of the car I will probably move up but for now I'm happy.

BTW, if you want someone to help share the coaching expense let me know as I have been thinking of that as well...

LVDell

Isn't that always the case regardless of what the car is?

TD in DC

Some cars make it easier than others. The higher the limit in your particular car, the harder it will be for you to safely push that limit in order to learn.

boqueron

4 seconds ?! And they call themselves "instructors" !

Many times we (GT3's and 964RS ) hire the track together with the BMW club. WITH the same driver, on a twisty track, an M3CLS could be 1sec (1) r slower than a GT3 only IF the former would have changed his brakes for something more reliable.....

If you are comparing a "tuned" BMW against a "plain" GT3, that's another story...

As you said, a tuned BMW can be as expensive as a GT3..

LVDell

Peter, what were the times? The 2 GT3's and the 4 sec faster M3.

smlporsche

Absolutely, and that's my point, you can have (almost?) as much fun in a lower HP car...

LVDell

almost? sure, I'll give you that. hard to quantify that though. as long as you are having as much fun as you can while out there and love it, then who cares if you are driving a ****box or a cup car