LVDell

We're sick. Very sick. Time to get help.

smlporsche

The only time we can get any help is...

ON THE TRACK, JACK!

That's why we do it.

LVDell

Eddie, I hear ya! I just took the car to the shop today for a quick alignment check and tech inspection for the VIR event in a couple weeks and the drive over was just intoxicating. Damn I need my track fix

Seth Thomas

I know I am a little late on this topic but I thought I would throw my little $.02 in.

I do think a lot about using a cheaper car on track for two reasons:

1. Cost Overall: The GT3 is a great car on the track. It is fast and it is reliable which is a very important factor for a track car. But to track the GT3 is not really cost effective for doing DEs. Tires are $1400 for a set that you get 4 weekends out of, Track wheels are expensive to purchase ($4k), Brakes are $1500 a year minimum, alignments aren't cheap at $200 a pop every 6 months, and these are just to name a few of the stuff you need to track a GT3. Yearly it is going to cost easily $4k a year in parts just to track the GT3.

2. The car is insanely fast on the track which is very dangerous if/when something goes wrong. Yes there is a bolt in rollbar and a bolt in cage for the car. I do not believe in bolt in cages or bars for ultimate safety. There is a reason that professional race series require a welded in cage for cars. Yes I know the FIA approved bit and all that but I still would not trust a bolt in bar or cage for my racecar.

So that leaves me with my conclusion on what to buy. With me being a BMW guy, I have to since I race them. So I bought a 1995 BMW 325 coupe. I paid $2500 for a car that was in great shape except missing most of the interior (perfect for a track car). It runs and it already had a track ready suspension on it. By the time I add wheels ($650 dollars), brakes ($500), various suspension bites ($500) and other stuff I should have less than $5K in the car. It is street legal and is light (under 3000lbs) in its current trim. The car does not have the speeds of the GT3 on the track but it does handle like a go cart, has decent power, and is a ball to drive on the track since I don't really care what happens to the car. I also partnered with 2 other guys on the car so each of us have less than $2k in the car at this time. This is a momentum car so it teaches the importance of corner entry speed which the GT3 does not do. There are a lot of positives to having this car but the main one is that if it gets wrecked on track I am only out $2k.

Bob Rouleau

I track my GT3. It's why I bought a GT3. Do I worry about wadding up an expensive car? Certainly. That's one of the reasons I am careful. As far aas I am concerned the notion of buying a cheap car so as not to worry about crashing it signifies the wrong attitude for Driver's Ed. In many PCA regions, crashes are as or more common in DE than in Club Racing. Am I the only one who thinks that it's wrong?

Regards,

Phokaioglaukos

No, Bob, I also think there should be no crashes in DE, but stuff happens. What should absolutely NEVER happen is that there is car-to-car contact. Even where there is a mechanical issue, contact with another car should be avoidable.

I got the GT3 as a street car, but now I probably have 80% of my miles to/from and on the track. It's a great DE car. If I bought a race car I'd have to sell the GT3, so I'm looking hard at arrive and drive racing and the GT3 for DE.

stuka

It depends on how safe and **** you want to be.

Some organizations have hardly one to three wrecks in one year, and all cars to date have been covered by the drivers' road insurance.

But, no open passing, no timing, designated passing zone with point by, and limited track time of 4 hours per two days is the price you pay.

And careful really isn't enough when it comes to **** happening. What if instead of you wadding up your own car and be out a lot of money, heaven forbid someone should hit YOU, or you hit THEM. Now you got PI liability, which can get messy in a hurry.

Bob Rouleau

Stuka - I participate in DE in our region and as you state there is no timing, passing with a signal. I also participate in open track days. The difference is that open track days I attend are by invitation and the drivers invited are very competent.

I am unlikely to get hit, I maintain situational awareness and avoid situations where the risk is elevated. As to hitting someone else - same applies. Note that if you run into someone with a 5,000 dollar car or a 100,000 dollar car you are in the same situation. The waivers we sign generally protect participants in such cases. If not, the value of your car is not a factor.

If one worries too much about these things, it is better not to track the car. You make the same choice if you decide not to ski or snowboard for example.

My point is that DE is gradually evolving into a sort of wannabe racing and the incident reports reflect it. Why the heck would you want to take risks to shave two tenths off your lap time? There is no prize after all.

Not so long ago, the paddock at a DE was full of cars. Now, it is full of big rigs and race cars. have we lost the plot?

Regards,

stuka

I am married to an attorney, so it is unlikely that I will ever be able to go to open track days, unless the organization is such that it can be proven that it is instructional, like DE, for insurance purposes.

Waivers are a tough thing. I don't know what it's like in her majesty's court system with them solicitors and them baristers, but it is a scary situation should I ever find oneself in in the US land of lawsuits.

Well, I don't run with PCA, but the one I run with my road insurance is fully in force, so I am not worried. The lack of track time for how expensive it is do get annoying though.

Well, judging from some of the posts on rennlist, that is certainly so. I wonder if all those people talking about their lap times really have thought about the implications of what could happen if they drill into another car when PSM gave up on them.

Nah, I can't speak for PCA events in the US, but the one I run with the paddock is still full of road cars. Mostly because race cars are not allowed due to again, lack of road insurance on them.

Holger B

I'm with Bob. I bought my GT3 to enjoy it both on the street & track and I'm fully aware of what the risks are.

Interestingly, I had an ontrack incident with another car during a DE with my old 996. It was the guys first time (which I didn't know until later), he was driving solo after only a few sessions, ignoring the passing flags and holding me up (I didn't have enough power to pass him on the straights). He finally spun, tried to save it and I purposely drove off track to try to avoid him but we made contact. I paid for my repairs out of pocket (~$4k) working under the assumption that everyone participates at their own risk at a DE. His damage was less than mine and he never even apologized.

So, the blanket statement that there should never be car-to-car contact is wrong as it's not always avoidable. Even if you maintain a safe distance behind someone, when they do something really stupid ahead of you there are some situations where contact can (and will) ensue. Fluid on the track, a mechanical failure, etc., can lead to a similar situation.

Seth Thomas

I don't think I explained my point in buying the 325 well enough. The main reason I bought the 325 is to have a cheaper car that I can track to take the blunt of the abuse seen on track. The abuse is taken by a car that can be thrown away if something does happen on track. And it is not about if something happens on track it is when. Something will happen to every person who tracks their car at some point if they do it long enough. Now this doesn't mean you are going to total your car or hit somebody else. At some point you are going to drive through oil left from a blown motor, coolant left from a popped hose, fluid from a blown diff, etc. This is something that will happen at some point. In this instance I had rather have damage to my cheap DE alternative car than to my nice GT3. This does not mean I will never take my GT3 to the track. I will but most of the time I do take a car to the track it will be in the 325.

The 325 also makes a better car to instruct in due to its high cornering speeds and low top speeds. I can show my students how to drive a car close to the limits without everything going by in a blur like the GT3. You have a lot more time to talk to them about your approach to the corner, what you are doing in the corner and how to properly exit the corner at those speeds without being at the next corner before you finish.

With alll of this in mind I didn't mean for my post to rob from this constructive thread about what DEs are about and how insurance is handled internally with them. Let's get back on topic here.

LVDell

Wheh! I didn't expect this thread to stay alive for this length of time. Thanks for all the input everybody!!!! Great discussion. Since I started this thread I have finally come to the understanding that I bought my GT3 for a reason.......to track it! Never once did I buy it with the thought of it being a daily driver. Since I started this thread I have had a lot of doubt why I am doing this in such a pricey car. But heck, I love it, and it gives me a phenomenal amount of pleasure. Right now, I am actually going through withdrawal from the track That car brings me a certain something that words cannot describe. Much like the high a drug addict gets from his fix, I get the same every time I am at the track. The only thing I hate about this hobby is that is has consumed me so much that my true passion, golf, has been shelved since I moved to NC. I had no idea how many track were so close. Not to mention having a world class circuit like VIR a hour away as your home track. If I ever decide to "scale it back" I will go by the route of Seth's suggestion. I'll but an older car that I can have very little invested in it and just hit the track every so often. Until then, I am addicted to the GT3. I should have never bought this damn thing! I'll never be able to let it go.

multi21

Save golf for when your older, track *****.

LVDell

I thought 35 was old?

blake

I'm with Dell. I've got the addiction, and live within an interesting dichotomy: I often get ticked off at paying an extra 50 cents above my percieved market value for carrotts at the supermarket, but feel very confident throwing down $3K on "track essentials" like new R-compound tires, Pagids, Cup rotors, mesh rad covers, rear toe links & an alignmen/corner balance. My wife thinks I am completely nuts, as does my accountant....

My personal "slippery slope" began like this: 1) buy Gt3 as 80% street car/20% track car last summer, 2) after first Fall DE weekend, it is down to 50/50, 3) after first winter WITHOUT a DE, it is down to 30/70, and 4) at the one year anniversary it is 0% street car and 100% track car, as I have just invested in an annual lease for a garage at the racetrack for the "3". Of course, rather than mod the heck out of this "street" car, I now want a Cup because that seems to make more sense... right?

When does it all end???? I need therapy..... Better head to the track to clear my head!

-B