Flat6 Innovations

In some applications. Its not standard for all engines.

johnireland

I would take my 964 and 993 to the Streets of Willow and do 45 minutes sets non-stop and never had any of these issues. Seems like an awful lot of mods are needed to make the modern 911s track worthy. I raced a 1958 Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce for several years in vintage events...8000 rpm every gear every shift every lap every race...and never burned a quart of Kendall 40w oil in an entire weekend, never a dnf. Denise McCluggage used to driver her Ferrari SWB from the Village in NYC down to Sebring Florida...tape up the headlights, race for 12 hours, and then drive the same car home to NYC. This whole thread reminds me of Nasim Taleb's new book "Antifragile." Perhaps technological sophistication has become a weakness rather than a strength.

Flat6 Innovations

That 964 was built by a company ran by Engineers, not accountants. It had a true dry sump oil system and could be ran near 5 quarts low on oil before it had any oil related issues on the track.

The same goes with the 993.

Neither pertains to the M96 engine.

Cuda911

Freekin' accountants.

rattlsnak

Ok, so is there or isn't there a fix for the AOS being overwhelmed?

DBJoe996

Do only high speed left hand turns! It is the long sweeping right turns that overwhelm the AOS.

Flat6 Innovations

First of all you have to indicate why the AOS is being overwhelmed. Then you have to treat that condition, it's the evil underlying root of the problem.

docmirror

For the guy who doesn't know the secret handshake, hasn't kissed the ring, and genuflected in the aura, is this a way of saying 'get the X51 engine oil baffle kit, as it will help reduce oil packing in the cam/valve chamber'? I sort of gathered that from a prev post, but as I intend to do some AX and maybe the occasional track day with a 3.4L engine 996 I would like to be prepared.

Some history may help. I own, maintain, and operate a 928GT(I know, really sorry that). They have a problem with oil starvation of the 2/6 rod bearing and part of the solution is the GTS engine oil baffle. Well, lucky me - on my first track event after buying it and without the GTS baffle in the pan my rod bearing seized and destroyed the crank and rods of my engine. So - maybe a bit less wink-wink, nod-nod is in order.

Not looking for a $35,000 race prep engine, with dry sump, giant AOS, dual scavenge setup, but something a relatively normal person would pursue to enjoy their car as it was designed... thankyou -- thankyouverymuch

KrazyK

I think that was JR's point. The 996 NA (except for the GT3) was not designed nor intended for track use. Porsche probably assumed if your intent was track use, you would be buying the GT3 or GT2 TT. Porsche and experts even sternly warn against tracking the 996 NA M96. Those that choose to ignore the warning should not be surprised when things go wrong.

docmirror

I did not know that. No excuse on me of course, but knowing that the 996 was actually designed to get groceries from the Piggly Wiggly, and take grammy to the train station speaks volumes.

Where does one find these stern warnings in the product literature?

Macster

My take is there are too many possible factors.

I note some owners apparently avoid seeing the signs of an AOS being overwhelmed.

Is this due to AOS differences? Possibly. Some AOS's are better (or worse) at what they do.

What about engine differences? Possibly. Engines can have some variation in the amount of oil that flows out at various places. There is also some variation in how effectively the scavenge pumps work. This can result in more oil being in the engine and being whipped about and more oil vapor being created. There is also the differences between engines and the amount of blow-by they have.

There is the oil to consider. Approved oils are high detergent oils. But they also have a good anti-foaming additive package too. If one ventures off the reservation regarding oils well, he may exacerbate the AOS's problems. Not only which oil is used but also its condition (oil with miles and contamination foams more readily) and its level are important.

Last but not least there is the driver. I have watched videos of Porsches on the track and in some cases I am considerably impressed with the smoothness of the driver. The smooth driver is not slow not by any stretch of the imagination. In other videos, with other drivers driving, there is an obvious lack of smoothness.

IOWs, the driver is partially to blame.

So there are at least some of the factors involved.

Now while there are too many factors to believe only the luck of the draw would have one picking the magic bullet there are things one can do to reduce the possibility the AOS gets overwhelmed.

At the top of the list I would think oil selection, freshness, and oil level.

Then there is the driver. The driver needs to get proper instruction or if possible to work on his own to improve his driving seeking to be smoother with the car, to avoid sawing away at the wheel, being all over track, to brake at the proper times, and do, or avoid doing, all the other things that go into being a smoother and a faster (and a safer) driver.

Kalashnikov

Doc, you've been on the Rennlist for a while...so you should know that 996 thrives as a garden ornament only.

I've read enough posts from Jake Raby ( go through the post history and verify if you want) to realize that almost every type of operation is hazardous to the M96 motor. The following is a short list of the information I got about M96 from F6I. I am not making this up, go through the F6I's posts and you will find posts listing all of the things I list here.

- Starting motor when it is cold outside is BAD. Uneven metal expansion in M96 kills them all the time.
- Idling M96 in traffic is bad, as timing chains cannot handle the stress. Idling is BAD.
- 1/4 mile runs are BAD as they stress the engine too hard and launching in straight line is too much for M96. You can score the cylinder walls. BAD.
- Driving M96 in hot weather is COULD BE BAD as oil can break down and motor can lose oil pressure. Hot weather is BAD.
- Taking fast turns is BAD as oil lubrication system is **** and your motor will starve for oil.
- Lugging the engine is BAD. Low RPM operation is BAD for something in M96.
- Sitting unused is BAD as oil drains from the lifters and on start up you get no lubrication for a few seconds.


What is GOOD for M96 according to F6I is running at high RPM when warm, but not too high, and no turns. So, highway (only in straight line though) driving at around 75-80MPH is where M96 feels the best and has highest chance of surviving.

This would be funny if it was a joke, but this is a reality of the $75-$90k car engine. LOL.

Ahsai

This is too funny LoL

DTMiller

I might love you.

rattlsnak

Where would you recommend having the oil level before an AX or such? I added about 1/2 quart to bring it right up to the full mark exactly that morning. Would it be better to run it a little lower, or?