Schnell Gelb

ABEC has nothing to do with 'seals'. Neither does ISO492. "Metal seals" is misleading.They are shields,not seals. The ZZ and ZZS shields have no seal.




We've had this discussion in previous threads and shared all the tech details,part numbers and prices.

alpine003

^^^
Not cool, crapping on a good vendor's thread. You should edit it IMO.

Schnell Gelb

If the tech info is muddled ,we should not correct it ?


If Jake or Charles had muddled their terminology like this ,they would not have been given a pass.

alpine003

Thank you for being a gentlemen and editing your original post. As for tech info riddled, Rhonda is a sales person and not a mechanic/technician so she can only go by the information she's been told or has on her. Apples to Oranges here.

If she is wrong in anyway and you have conclusive evidence contrary to what was said then you could just as well bring it up in a very civilized and gentlemen way without all the bashing. That's the way I see it at least.

Schnell Gelb

Just check any Bearing House catalog for the info required. It is very basic Mech. Eng. stuff.
If you start with SKF you'll note that even their lightest duty deep groove ball bearing are ABEC 1 or better - so the claim that the FVD bearing from SKF(?) or NTN(?) is unrated by ISO or ABEC is also highly suspect.
A vendor would jump at the chance to correct their technical data - regardless of the source.
I am just alerting Forum members to the issue. This has all been covered before in great detail with many citations(some by me) if anyone wants the details.
If you want an unrated bearing in this size ,they are $7 on EBay. They fit lawnmowers! So you can be sure that a real Engineer at FVD would be delighted to correct Rhonda.And I doubt they would be as mild as my comments are.As a Mech Eng it drives me nuts when sales people make this sort of mistake -and don't fix it because both the company and the customers suffer.

Rhonda@FVD

Perhaps you missed mech503’s question, he stated So I simply answered him graciously using the same terminology. I was not trying to mislead anyone.

Perhaps, I should have answered like this, No and No. That way I would have been sure that someone (seems a little biased to a certain brand) had absolutely nothing to point fingers at.

Rhonda@FVD

Thanks for the support and kind words. Don’t worry about it, I am met with this hostility quite a bit. As I keep saying I don’t have an ego so it doesn’t bother me.

Schnell Gelb

It is important to differentiate between my technical correction and the defecation comment further back.
I gave a technical correction.If my comment is technically inaccurate -please correct it.Rennlist is all about correct tech info?
As previous (not me) contributors to this thread have mentioned, the same spec. SKF bearing is available "for less than $100".

But I am not advocating a diy approach to bearing selection and have said so on this Forum. However ,it is fun (for a Mech Eng anyway) to go through the specs and offerings and find Silicon Nitirde or other ceramic bearings that according to some experts (not me!) are even better suited to this application. Just search 6204 or 5204 +/- the features you want - seals/viton/shields/ceramic/hardness /Ra/ .
If you make a study of this subject (I have) you will probably conclude that : yes you can find some super-spec bearing(IMSB) for little money but the experts who have sold/installed thousands of kits do not use it. Why ? My conclusion is that the experts must know more than me and they have statistics to support their choice.I do not. So when I see a 'new' bearing specified for the IMSB ,I wonder if the first users realize they are guinea pigs. The generic SKF bearing FVD specified may be fine .If it is, the data will be useful for others who follow.
And as painful experience by a few other members has indicated ,bearing spec is much less important than pre-qualification and installation.The best Installation Instructions I found are many pages of excruciating imperatives. The pre-qualification directives eliminate a lot of M96 engines with failed or failing IMSB. But people slap in a new bearing and are 'surprised ' by the negative result.This is a scenario that we have discussed previously and it causes severe $ problems for P-car owners.
When I rebuilt my M96(improper IMSB replacement by P.O.?) ,I bought a kit from an expert even though I was eager to experiment with an upgraded bearing. When I opened the kit, the part number revealed a generic bearing ....

chamilun

Glad you are ignoring the internet experts. There are plenty of threads for them to share their expertise. When someone is a vendor for the forums, at worst we should just appreciate them for keeping this place going. At best, purchase their products.

Schnell Gelb

I corrected what I politely called a muddle. How is that hostility ?
I am not an Internet expert. I repeatedly said I was not. However I am Mech Eng and can read a Bearing Manual well enough to correct a vendors muddled technical comments. If that is not a useful technical contribution to a technical discussion ,then I am muddled too !
Buried in this is a unique feature of the FVD kit that has not been explained - FVD Engineers please help ![/B]Unique selling points are useful in promoting FVD products?
The bearing specified by FVD is (according to the sales person ) metal shielded but not sealed(ZZ or ZZS).But earlier in this thread they said it was sealed ! Their terminology may be muddled again so the seals may be both shielded and sealed ? It is difficult to have an intelligent discussion without correct use of Engineering terms. But I'll try to help promote their product and entice an FVD engineer into the discussion to clarify for us. Good to know they spec an ABEC 9 bearing - that is a major enhancement over some other kits. But there is more:
1. The metal shields(not sealed) address two of the many criteria previously raised(not by me) in selecting an IMSB bearing - lubrication and venting.
The clearance between the shield and the bearing race is large enough(?) to allow oil to enter(capillarity) the IMS bearing when the engine is off and on level ground. It might 'fill' the bearing about 1/3 of the way. When the engine is running ,the oil level may be high enough to keep replenishing oil in the bearing. But -would all the oil be spun out when the engine runs ? Perhaps the oil would remain in the bearing long enough to provide adequate lubrication ? FVD comment invited.
2. This clearance also allows venting. This has been suggested as a reason the 2RS bearings loose their grease and fail.
3. BUT the FVD has metal shields on both sides. So it may allow oil to drain into the IMS tube and also fill it to 1/3 full. Allowing oil into the IMS tube has been condemned by others as a source of contaminated lubricant. Perhaps FVD has tested this ? This is important because the metal shield is attached to the outer race. This creates a "wier" for the oil that has entered the IMS tube. That old rancid oil can never be drained. There will always be a residual amount in the tube. Maybe that is insignificant ? FVD comment ?
The common solution to this is to buy a 2RS bearing('rubber' seals on both sides of the bearing) and remove the outer seal before installation.
A more imaginative solution to this may be to spec a 1 ZZS or ZZ+ 1RS bearing ? Perhaps that is what FVD have and there is yet another muddle in their comments ?
None of this is new thinking just a re-hash of the accumulated wisdom & experience of others. For example - the specific issue of ZZ/ZZS + ABEC 9 bearings was discussed on Pedro's Forum with an ex-Timken Engineer a couple of years ago.
http://www.bocabearings.com/productD...x?ItemID=16750
http://www.skf.com/us/products/mrc/h...ngs/index.html
I raise these technical issues to help advance the technical discussion by learning about the unique features and benefits of the FVD kit. Over to you FVD.

User 63031

..

Schnell Gelb

If anyone reads the whole Thread here, they will see multiple "Red Flags" regarding this different IMSB alternative. How sad that Boxman became a victim.
If such failure had occurred with The Solution, can you imagine being rejected by Charles or Jake ?.

Porschetech3

user 63031, sorry to hear about your IMS failure..It sucks. With all the IMSB kits and discussion I too have decided I could do no worse than all the others. I speced a cylindrical NUP204-E SKF bearing and had appropriate aluminum spacers made to fit to a dual row shaft and flange..In my view the solid bushing is the best route , but to expensive for my budget and is patented so I won't be designing my own..

Schnell Gelb good to see you man, where you been? I thought you had dissapeared !!

User 63031

I guess being proven right makes people reappear, haha. His posts were invaluable in guiding me towards sourcing my own bearing, and in figuring out how mine could have failed so early. Unfortunately I was not yet the owner of this car when the FVD was put in, or I would sure have stumbled upon this thread before installing and opted for another solution.

Schnell Gelb

Most of what I learned and shared about the IMSB issue was from Jake ,JFP and Charles. They patiently corrected every (ineffective) idea we (I) threw at them. I was astonished that they would take the time to bother . I even got P.M
s from them offering help even though I had never spent a dime with them. Indeed, I even used their competitors products and discussed it ! We even debated esoteric issues like DOF ,wandering into aircraft engine design for examples and came to some very sound conclusions.Wonderful ,geekish stuff.
Sadly some Forum members became quite abusive toward those who gave sound advice or well argued contrary opinions. The Admin seemed to ignore it and the inevitable happened. This Forum lost Jake and Charles and a few others as frequent contributors..So I just followed them to a quieter Forum where we had lots of technical help without the hostility. .