How much should I budget for Pre-failure R&M?

 

She's loaded up on the truck and headed back to California. Can't wait to drive it!

 

The car is on the way home!!!
Ed was great to work with, his car is well prepped and I enjoyed driving it the 300 test miles on the back roads of North Georgia!

 

Jake, interesting to see the process in photos. Do you have the final dyno? Also how do these upgrades impact the cars ability to pass CA smog? Are there any issues if someone went from a 3.4 to one of your performance oriented upgrades?

TIA

 

Yep.. Will convert and post it tomorrow.

None of these mods altered the engine internally. We simply replaced components electively. We added just a couple of items for performance, but they will not impact smog at all.

Just because the engine is internally modified already makes it illegal to apply in California, whether or not it passes smog. When we sell engines to Californians the proposal states that the engine is for off highway use only, unless it goes back together bone stock, only with reliability and longevity enhancements.

 

Thanks goodness we have CARB to look out for us

 

Well, that was the longest 44 days...

Took delivery of my car today and put about 60 miles on it. I loved my car before this. Now, I don't know if I'll be able to keep my hands off her!

The engine note has changed. It's "sonorous", aka, flippin incredible when at song. Quieter at idle. Power is very linear. The clutch is no longer a left leg workout.

Kudos to Jake and Flat6 Innovations for caring about these wonderful cars, spotting the issue, and engineering a fix. As a result, more will stay on the road.

 

Hows that last dyno look?..... congrats Ed!

Jake thank you for sharing.

 

Thanks.
Didn't gain anything. I was prepared for that. However, now it's turbine smooth.
The harder you push the loud pedal, the faster she goes.

 

Ed, Glad to hear that you got the car with a flawless return trip.. 44 days for a car shipped from 2500 miles away round trip to include our procedures has to be a new record! The car spent as much time in transit as the procedures took!

A lot of what we capitalize on isn't notable on the dyno.. The part throttle performance at less than WOT is super notable and the engine just runs silk smooth.

Ed was great to work with.. His car is nice and we are happy to have made it much nicer.

BTW_ That truck that dropped Ed's car off is headed back soon and will be here dropping off on May 2nd, when it woll grab the next round of west coast cars heading back home. Anyone that wants to catch a ride on the truck as it heads back across country and get services like Ed should call me ASAP! We have set aside May as the IMSR month and thats all we'll be doing all month.

 

I am new to the forum and forums in general and was just readi this thread. It started with a request for a reputable engine shop in the NorCal area. I live in South Florida and blew the motor (bent valves and damaged piston in cylinder 5 due to the scavenger pump on that side letting go) of my Seal Gray '03 996 in March. It was a real body blow at the time due to the state of my finances. I talked to LN and to Jake and to a shop in Miami. The Miami oufit made all sorts of promises for less than 1/2 of Jake's price.

I went with them due to the aformentioned financial issue. Four months and 9,000 totally wasted dollars later, it blew much worse than the first time (left hook to the jaw). This time I cashed in some FF miles and went to meet Jake and the guys. Long story short, my car is now in Cleveland, GA in the early stages of one of Jake's Stage II rebuilds. I have a November build slot and am counting the days.

I've kicked myself in the *** some many times I can't sit down over the lost $9k. I wasn't fully aware of the scope of work included in FSI's rebuilds until I visted the shop. There is no comparison between it and what I got in Miami. Talk about penny wise and thousand dollar foolish! I strongly recommend that anyone with a blown M96 really do their research before committing hard earned dollars to the myriad engine rebuilding outfits springing up all over.

I haven't driven a FSI engined car and certainly have no firsthand knowlege on how they hold up. I will share my experiences with the FSI motor when I get the car back in December.

Thank you.

 

Mike, since you posted here I hope you don't mind if I make you our poster child.. As the old Indian Proverb reads "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."

And then when you talked to me I didn't make any promises, didn't tell you what you wanted to hear and my price seemed to be way more. I am overly blunt, won't give anyone any information that makes them over expect from us. Everything we do is in a written proposal format with ZERO fine print. If anyone doubts any aspect of what we do to include development, knowledge, business ethic or integrity; I refuse to work with them.

Back then you made the same mistake that people do everyday and you assumed that all engine builders are the same and that we are just bolting things together. I am glad to see that you actually understand the differences now, its too bad that words can't describe what sets us apart from those other guys.

We have developed every aspect of our engine from the sealants to the oil and every component that comprises the engine. We don't un-box parts and throw things together, we do it all the way or not at all.

If you think a quality M96 engine is expensive, wait until you see how much a cheap one costs you!

We don't get to meet very many of our clients, so its very nice when someone schedules an appointment to see what its like behind the curtain here. I bet you had your mind blown when you found our facility in the middle of no where :-)
Few people get to see where the magic happens :-)



And luckily we were able to find you a crankshaft and IMS assembly to make up
for the destroyed ones that the other guys left you stuck with.
Add 2500.00 for the replacement for this useless crankshaft


Add 700.00 (DAMN thats a deal) for the replacement of this dented and no longer straight IMS assembly



Thats why you need to contact the guy that just called us and sent me this picture.
[IMG]https://rennlist.com/forums/members/flat6-innovations-albums-bro
ken-stuff-picture12022-2005-c2s-will-he-make-the-right-decision.jpg[/IMG]
This is the perforated crankcase that he now has after a rod bolt was compromised at turn 11 of Mid Ohio.. He balked at my price tag for repairing this and reconstructed the engine the right way. Since we have already established that the quickest way to waste 9,000 dollars is by trying to save that much, I believe that he needs to hear about your experiences.

Right now he hasn't made a mistake, but he certainly seemed like there was no way he would be willing to spend the money to pay the price of admission into the Flat 6 Innovations engine family.

Like I said, words cannot describe what we do.. Neither can pictures or video. You have to see what we do, where we do it, how we do it and the people who do it before you can appreciate what we have created. I post very little on the site, purposely.

Hell, I have plenty of comparatives to that in our scrap metal bin!
Want to see how much these people value their work and reputation? Want to see how little they respect the pile of junk they had to send to another facility? Check this out... Its exactly the way we received Mike's engine cores.


This is like going to the supermarket and you get the luck of drawing that 16 year old punk with his hat on sideways that don't give a damn about your eggs and bread and smashes them with frozen foods or a container of ice cream.. Same difference, only he screwed up parts worth hundreds of dollars.

They have zero pride, looking at how these components were disrespected told us all that.

It would have cost you even more if I hadn't given you a replacement crankcase from our core bank.

Doing it once with us isn't expensive; its priceless..
I don't think those guys in Miami will ever have a purchaser email this to another potential customer of their shop who questions their warranty:

My name is Jack Koch and I live in Vancouver WA. Like you I had serious concerns with the warranty section of my proposal for a rebuild of my 98 Boxster engine.
I chose to make the leap of faith after talking with friends who are big air cooled VW fans. They knew of Jake’s work and told me he is known for doing great work and “Making it right” if his work did not stand up.
I received my engine and had it installed locally and it purred like a kitten until the 8k mark. The engine suffered from a bad lifter that actually blew out of the valve cover and my heart stopped. Jake was very apologetic and attempted to work with qualified local shops to do the repair at his expense. Due to the lack of knowledge about the Boxster engine he could find no one that was willing to do the work. I talked with Jake and he informed me that he would fly out and do the work personally to make it right. He arrived and not only with the parts (camshafts, lifters and carriage) for the damaged side but also for the other side to make sure had I had no more issues. He completed the work and I have been driving my Boxster trouble free to work every day since. The repairs Jake made were over 10k miles ago and my engine is purring like a kitten.
If you would like to discuss my experience with Jake / Flat 6 over the phone just let me know.
Jack Koch

Key words "springing up"...
We were working with this engine in the days where they were no parts available other than what we built or modified from other engines. In those days the majority of other shops told us that we were crazy, because a new engine could be bought for 5K. They went on to explain how the engines could not be rebuilt and would never make any power.. How it would be impossible to become profitable when working with something so internally complex and unknown.

Just in the past 3 months more "chop shops" have sprung up that are building these engines from piles of core junk, in salvage yards. The people doing this work can't be experienced, because as little as 6 months ago I know of one of them who didn't know the difference between a 2.5 liter Boxster engines and a 3.6 996 engine! Hell, he almost sold me a running 3.6 for the price of a 2.5 because he did not know the difference! Today they are whoring their services out to everyone for 1/2 the cost of what we create and it will put them out of business, just like it has the others.

Today we are writing the book on the M96 engine, teaching some of those naysayers how to build these engines as students in our engine assembly schools and have had those curriculums accepted in training programs like the Worldpac Technical Institute. At WTI in January 2012 I'll teach hundreds of technicians from all over the world what they need to know about the M96.Its no longer a laughing matter to those guys.

Long story short, the quote I inserted above has been the only engine issue we have had with one of our engines since day #1 of the program. We do it right, take our time and don't give failure the opportunity to visit us. We run this business in a military manner with exceptional communication and couple that to old fashioned hard work, respect and integrity for both the engine and the owner. The end result is purchasers all over the world that get more than they pay for and are willing to go out of their way to recommend our services to friends and family. Thats why we are backlogged till June 0f 2012 for reconstructed engines. This can't be rushed; you'll not find a single clock in any of our work areas and no one is paid based on production rates~

That said, the parts bill for Mike's engine exceeds 15,000.00- How the hell did that other guy even make it run for 8K? If it seems too good to be true; it really is.

BTW- I had trouble inserting images into this thread... Sorry about that

 

gasp. subscribed (unless of course 996c2 makes his own thread).

 

I've got a '00 996 and I sometimes "mine" the various forums for information, but I've never posted on one. When I saw this Rennlist thread on 996 motor failures and Jake Raby's pioneering efforts in the area, however, I wanted to share a few experiences.

When I bought my 996 with 71k miles in early 2007, I had been researching the 996 for about 18 months and was very familiar this engine's weaknesses through the experiences of others. So, instead of buying a $50k 996, I waited until I found a super clean example for $30k and then banked the difference. The car looked and performed like a nearly new car, which was impressive for its miles. I've had an '86 911 and an '86 930, and I love this 996.

I have been lucky in that in over four years, 20k add'l miles and three seasons of PCA DE track driving, I had only normal maintenance and absolutely no failures of any kind. All work on the car was otherwise elective. Nevertheless, I knew that at 90k miles I was probably starting to push my luck. When I had my car tech'd in September '10 for an upcoming DE, I heard a new ticking sound while standing beneath the nose of the transmission and looking rearward. I suspected the IMS, so it was time to upgrade, not rebuild (big difference).

One reason for my suspicion of the IMS was that I had taken Jake's inaugural M96 engine assembly course in February '10. One thing we covered in detail was the IMS, and we got to examine quite a few that had been pulled from motors. Being familiar with Jake and his crew's experience with this motor, having seen the spotless shop, and learning so much about the motor during the three-day course (including knowing I shouldn't try this as a hobbyist) made my choice an easy one. In fact, the most important outcome for me was that I knew that Flat 6 Innovations was where I was sending my car when it was time to upgrade my motor.

Fast forward to mid-August '11...I've just gotten my car back from Jake and the engine is truly awesome, this with stock intake and exhaust systems bolted on (actually, the originals). Despite all the upgrades being internal to the engine and run by the factory ECU program (no-flash), this motor has an incredibly wide torque band that comes in strongly at 3,000 rpm, with a peak of 246 ft lbs and 286 hp--at the tires. Peak power arrives 1,000 rpm below redline, so this will be a long-life motor since I don't need to thrash it to push the car along quickly. Friendly daily driver, too.

To date I've only been to Mid-Ohio since getting the car back, and wasn't pushing it hard. Yet I soon discovered that I no longer needed to downshift to 2nd gear through the Carousel, Keyhole, or T7 at the end of the back straight, nor down to third gear at T1 before heading up to the Keyhole--there's so much power available in the next higher gear that there's no sense staying in a lower gear during high performance driving (this isn't racing and I'm the sole sponsor). Headed to Putnam Park in two weeks for another DE weekend.

I got exactly the motor I wanted in terms of performance, as well as all the upgrades that Jake and Charles have perfected. This 996 is a keeper, and I'll be very surprised if the Raby engine isn't still powering the car on weekend drives, road trips and at the track...in 2021. Oh, and on dis-assembly of the factory motor, a "tightening up" IMS was the only likely suspect for the sound I'd heard.

I am so glad that I did this now. For one thing, I get to enjoy this marvelous engine right now and not at some indistinct point in the future.

I could not be more satisfied! Because this is a major investment, in my mind this makes it a do-it-once, do-it-before-failure, and do-it-right situation. Jake and Flat 6 have my highest recommendation. Mmm, I think I'm going out for a drive...

 

Greg,
Glad you finally stopped lurking (why do all our purchasers lurk?!!!!) and did a little bragging on that car :-)

You should be jealous of 996c2, because he got to see the heart of your engine... When he stopped by that day for his visit your baby was going together :-)