911Syncro

Thank you Charles. One thing we should be able to conclude: periodically reving the Tip to higher RPMs won't help much as a preventative measure..

Optionman1

took my newly acquired 2003 c4s (22k miles) into dealer for IMS replacement. maybe it would never fail, but for the cost vs peace of mind i'll take peace of mind.

angello

Hi guys , regards from Croatia.
I have an early 2005 997.1 C2 tip with 108k kilometers ( 67k miles) on it. This is a M96/05 engine and the engine number (69501175) says it has the single row ims bearing . The car is great , all services done in Porsche service but their oil change intervals were naturally at 20k kilometers (12000miles) , Mobil1new life 0w40. So I am a bit worry about the imsb failure. I have done only 4k kilometers in two years but I have changed the oil recently. The engine/ gearbox is dry , no unusual noises , no debris in the oil filter. I have learned all about the imsb issue , all about retrofits , LN , Pedros DOF , EPS , etc. The problem is Croatia is a small country, low number of 996/997 Porsches and not a one imsb failure at all ! So my Porsche mechanic says they are not trained and he will not do any retrofit with some parts out of the oem porsche parts. This is a tiptronic gearbox so there wont be any clutch changing in the future.It is not a low mileage car so I am giving up on any ims solutions by now.
Anyhow , by reading and learning about imsb failure , we all presume it happens at about 8% of the cars with single row bearing , low mileage cars , garage queens , short driving with not properly heated oil , low revs , long oil change intervals ....etc.
All of these facts have made me thinking about what could be in common of every all the above mentioned suspections ? The only thing I can find is the oil level in the sump. I can not find any post about it on any Porsche forum . Let me share my thoughts with you:
The ims bearing was a sealed ball bearing with grease in it when was new. After some time and mileage the engine oil enter the bearing through the seals and wash the grease out. That is a fact because all the owners who has as precaution measure changed the bearings say there was no grease inside but there was engine oil. And most of the bearings were good.
Therefore , the bearing was lubricated with the oil , no problems. The oil level in the sump comes at about 1 or 2 centimeters from the lowest part of this bearing when the engine is not running so the bearing is partialy in the oil when the car is in the garage. When we start the engine , the bearing picks up the oil and spins lubricated . Whats the oil level in the sump when the engine idle and what is on higher revs , I dont know because the oil must get to every part of the engine. This is technically a dry sump engine so there is no oil splashing around by the crankshaft so I dont know how much oil the bearing gets at this point. But I believe when we stop at the lights and the engine idle , the bearing is again partialy in the oil. I am talking about the fresh and clean oil changed regularly. Also there is some amount of oil in the shaft, good or bad depends on some other facts. But the bearing is lubricated.
Now, we are talking about the garage queens , low mileage cars with the old engine oil inside. Do these owners check the oil level when they seat in their cars ? I dont think so. Even if they check it , they assume all is ok as long as the oil level is not at the minimum on the scale on the display. And the difference from the minimum and maximum oil level could be more then 1 liter ( quart ) ! What is going on with the bearing now when the oil level is too low ? Does it seat dry for months , and doesnt get initial oil splash?? How much oil does it get when the engine idle or revs? I dont now but I think this is the issue with these 8% or 1% on the other two kinds of berings . Apart from that , I think low revs and cold oil doesnt go through the bearings seals to refresh the old oil stucked in the shaft as well.
What do you think about it ?
pardon my english....

Charles Navarro

It's a common misconception that the M96/M97 engine is a dry sump engine. It is indeed a wet sump engine and there is a lot of oil being thrown about the inside the engine by the chains as they pass through the engine oil.

The original seals on the bearing are designed only for intermittent use at 250F, which over time, become hard and brittle, failing to keep the grease in the bearing. Based off many years of observations, most IMS bearings will have their grease washed out and the shaft itself will fill up with oil, even with the seals still present. This oil, along with the partial submersion, will provide some oil to the original bearing.

If the primary cause for bearing failure was solely lubrication, we would expect the original dual row and later MY06-08 bearings to fail at equal rates to the least durable single row.

Once a bearing has been fitted without a grease seal (open bearing), there is ample oil mist from oil laden air along with the partial submersion to ensure proper lubrication for your choice of ball or roller bearing.

With regards to your mechanic only using OEM Porsche parts, currently the only option is a teardown and installation of the current MY06-08 complete IMS shaft. The "Retrofit" bearing kit released by Porsche with a sealed, single row ceramic hybrid bearing was available for ordering only for a very short period in 2017 and soon became unavailable for ordering.

angello

Charles , the M96 3.6 engine is technically a dry sump engine but with the oil tank in the engine. It has a scavenge pump , oil splash protection plates and crankshaft counterweights dont swim in the oil when the engine is not running. But this is not so important.
My question is what happens with imsb when it seats for a longer period dry , over the oil level with the owners who let their cars with oil level at minimum ? We agree the original grease has been washed out after some mileage.

steam_mill

I had the Solution installed in October in my new to me 2003. I was at 45000 miles. Bearing seemed fine. No real idea how to tell. I removed the seal. There was no sign of any grease or lube. It didn’t even look like there was ever grease in there.

angello

I suppose there was oil inside the bearing , wasn' it ?

996AE

IMS Solution going in next week.

Installer is offering an option to keep original paper Porsche filter.

Shop is not a fan of the metal spin on filter offered in the LN kit.

Anyone know of this mod?

You run a oil line to plug off thread on driver side of motor top under water/coolant tank.

808Bill

I suggest you bring this up with the inventor...There's a reason Jake does what he does, he's not the short cut type.

Flat6 Innovations

Find another shop.

This one is so lost that they don’t even realize that the IMS Solution REQUIRES oil volume supplied by the proprietary (and Patented) spin on oil filter assembly that is made specifically for the IMS Solution. What have they developed for these engines, and what have they done? Who are they, as I'd flag every single install that they've done as being suspect, and attach that flag to every VIN registered.

There’s no other option to use the factory oil filter assembly, and modifications to do so will result in an epic failure.

If the installer wants to rob oil from the bank 1 camshaft cover, as you suggest, then he will be doing so at the sacrifice of the bank 1 valve train. The reason why we took the time to create, and patent the oil supply location with the IMS Solution, is because I found out the importance of having "just filtered oil" as well as attaining oil volume and pressure immediately upon start top. As developed, the IMS Solution is the very first component in the engine to receive oil volume, and pressure within the engine. Oil goes from the oil pump directly to the filter, then to the IMS Solution, BEFORE stopping anywhere else. This means that start up wear is non- existent, as designed. Every single other location that we used to attain oil viumne and pressure tot he IMS Solution resulted in a negative being experienced. At the location where we attain the oil volume, and pressure, we see a consistent 12 PSI higher oil pressure than anywhere else, with catalogers taking pressure readings at 8 different places on the engine, simultaneously. With hot oil, over 220 degrees, the pressure differential could be as much as 16 PSI deviation, which I have logged, simultaneously.

"Robbing" oil from the cam cover for the IMS Solution works exactly opposite from this. It takes away volume and pressure used to actuate the variable valve timing, and variable lift for those fitted with various-cam "Plus". It also rubs critical operating oil pressure and volume for the hydraulic lifters. This modification alone can easily create camshaft phasing issues with hot oil, and result in a camshaft diagnostic fault code for "bank 1 inlet camshaft out of range- retarded". Yes, been there, done that, and blown that up. I know what you can expect, because I have experienced it. There are no "pros" to running the system as he has mentioned, only negatives... You also forego the benefits of having "just filtered oil", to attain oil from the END of the oil system, rather than the "beginning" of the system, as I have designed it. This means that you are getting dirty oil to the IMS Solution, AND the IMS Solution ends up being the LAST item lubricated within the engine, instead of the first.

Now, tell me how any of that makes any sense. My 7 year old daughter can teach this installer more about the IMS Solution, than he already knows- no exaggeration.

If this installer wants to take these kinds of risks, all because he doesn't like the design of something, then he'd better be willing to warranty the product himself, because his modification will damn sure kill the product warranty. I designed the IMS Solution in a certain way, and took a decade of my life to prove it. I wasted two years trying the things that your installer wants to do.

Looks like it's time to shoot another video to teach people how to think. Damn it.

This is why I take the time to train, and certify IMS Solution installers. Use one.

996AE

Thanks

Shop offered as an option only - been shopping around - lots of opinions out there

As for IMMS Cert guys we only have one in CALI to choose from

I will stick with the IMMS kit spin on filter for this prevented maintenance work

I appreciate the feedback guys

996AE

Well, after 6 years of living with the dreaded IMS failure risk, I have finally succumb to the pressure. As a risk taking entrepreneur (Rodeo Clown & investor) risk is my game. So owning a 996 fits with my life style.

My 2004 996AE, with many nice GT3 mods is going under the knife. IMSS going in today. Oil filter inspection good, Cam dev., within spec, vacuum test for AOS good, etc... pre inspection complete yesterday.

At 33k miles, annual oil changes, BlackStone reports, preventive water pump, low T of course, coil packs, sparkies (while mufflers were out getting FIstered - age not miles) my beautiful X51, PSS10, GT3 ride height, Euro seats and wheels will get the 5k plus IMMS treatment.

She is worth it. Like a day at the spa for my ride.

Hard to spend the money on a non performance mod but as someone wise once said owning a 996 is like owning an aircraft. You must do the preventive maintenance stuff to keep her flying.

I have picked out a very special place for my new, very expensive paper weight. Shop said they will engrave it for me.

STUPID is what they suggested.

I pick it up this afternoon.The paperweight not the car.

cbracerx

Good move. You can sleep better at night with one big risk mitigated. And should you need to sell, no worries with the market about protection.

996AE

Spring Day Drive
Saw car yesterday on lift with trans out. AOS replaced, rear main seal, IMSS prepped. Saw the IMSS in person for the first time. Work of art. Expensive, like art. This is how Porsche should have built our cars from the start. First thing this morning IMSB will be removed and IMSS going in. Hope to drive her home tonight.

Clutch at 33k is good, so at 1,500 miles or so averaged over last six years I am going to save the money. If and when needed I will drop trans and DIY clutch. If clutch goes its obvisious and isnt a catastrophic event.

I did, even though AOS tested in spec agree to R&R it. Sounded complicated and I saved a ton of labor while trans out.

Sancho22

Is there a difference in the difficulty of removing a dual vs single row bearing from the early cars such as 2000 C4 cab for example?

I been told that i have one which is harder to remove, needs more work etc...