The IMS discussion thread (Read this first!)
12-05-2016, 08:49 PM
#226
Former Vendor
As someone about to take delivery of an '02 C4S, I want to thank you all for taking the time to provide the content in this thread.
I don't want to spend 50%+ of the car I'm buying on rebuilding a motor, so it appears I'll be having the IMS Solution installed.
Jake, you seem to have one installer in/around Toronto - Liam Kelly & Keltech Performance. I've never heard of his shop. He's definitely not one of the 3-5 go-to shops in the Canadian section of this forum. Have you sold him many of these kits?
I don't want to spend 50%+ of the car I'm buying on rebuilding a motor, so it appears I'll be having the IMS Solution installed.
Jake, you seem to have one installer in/around Toronto - Liam Kelly & Keltech Performance. I've never heard of his shop. He's definitely not one of the 3-5 go-to shops in the Canadian section of this forum. Have you sold him many of these kits?
It's a fact that the more jobs that a shop does, the faster they try to do the work. This is because of the screwed up way that technicians are paid, more than anything. The IMSR ends up being treated like a brake job, and that is bad news.
I invited Liam to the program because he was very attentive in classes that he attended here, and his way of doing things are a lot like mine.
The popularity of a shop doesn'timpress me, and also doesn't mean that they do good work. In fact I've had attendees in classes from big name shops, and they were completely lost. By the same token I've had attendees that were from their own one man shop, that no one has ever heard of, and they kick ***. These are the guys that deserve to be invited to shine through our program in most cases. They don't rush, they follow procedure.
That said, I have no idea how many kits that Liam has bought, since all Installers buy their products from a distributor, and I don't sell anyone, anything.
12-06-2016, 07:20 AM
#227
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Speaking with an Indy, he said he didn't recommend the Solution in anything other than a race car. Said the Solution requires higher revs to keep the bearing properly lubricated.
12-06-2016, 07:45 AM
#228
Former Vendor
What he doesn't know is the development of the IMS Solution included a test engine that ran over 400 hours at idle speed. At times I would use an in line valve, with pressure gauge fitted to shut the oil partially off to the IMS solution. I have ran the unit with as little as 2PSI oil pressure, and after a 50 hour study the unit had no more visual, or measurable wear than it did previously. During these tests ambient temps were in the 90s and the engine ran day and night without being shut off, sitting in a test car in the middle of our field, just in case it was to catch fire during the night. Coolant temps were over 240 the entire times, oil temps were 280 degrees plus, and the car would consume 20 gallons of fuel to run for 24 hours, non stop. We didn't even shut it down to refuel it! After the test the car rolled back onto the dyno, and was punished even more
Hear this:
If the Indy was correct the main and Rod bearings in your engine would fail unless the engine was used as a "race engine". Why? This is simple, they are 3-5X bigger than the IMS Solution journal diameter, and have an even greater necessity for oil volume and pressure than the Solution.
This is further proven by the fact that the IMS solution receives its oil directly from the spin on filter adaptor, putting it FIRST in line for oil in the entire primary oil system. That's first before any other dynamic component inside the entire engine. This is part of the novel art that allows the IMS Solution to be Double Patented. This is THE highest oil
pressure found in the entire engine, as it is closest to the oil pump, and offers "just filtered oil" in the highest quantities possible.
This Indy could not be more incorrect. It's clear that he didn't want to do any extra work to fit the IMS Solution over a standard Retrofit and that he was more concerned with the clock than outfitting the engine in the best manner possible.
Please PM me the name and number of the shop, and the tech that told you this. He deserves to hear a few sweet things whispered in his ear. I hate misinformation and people that spew it, when they are clearly, and completely, lost.
I'm send him a video of an IMS Solution equipped engine running with NO oil line attached, both at idle and at 6,000 RPM. The video is from under the car, and oil is leaking out of the IMS Solution feed port, so no way it's fake!
People...........
12-06-2016, 08:51 AM
#229
Rennlist Member
The IMS Retrofit isn't about how many you've done. Practice often doesn't make perfect in regard to this practice. If every Installer was as careful as they were on their very first Retrofit, things would be much better.
It's a fact that the more jobs that a shop does, the faster they try to do the work. This is because of the screwed up way that technicians are paid, more than anything. The IMSR ends up being treated like a brake job, and that is bad news.
I invited Liam to the program because he was very attentive in classes that he attended here, and his way of doing things are a lot like mine.
The popularity of a shop doesn'timpress me, and also doesn't mean that they do good work. In fact I've had attendees in classes from big name shops, and they were completely lost. By the same token I've had attendees that were from their own one man shop, that no one has ever heard of, and they kick ***. These are the guys that deserve to be invited to shine through our program in most cases. They don't rush, they follow procedure.
That said, I have no idea how many kits that Liam has bought, since all Installers buy their products from a distributor, and I don't sell anyone, anything.
It's a fact that the more jobs that a shop does, the faster they try to do the work. This is because of the screwed up way that technicians are paid, more than anything. The IMSR ends up being treated like a brake job, and that is bad news.
I invited Liam to the program because he was very attentive in classes that he attended here, and his way of doing things are a lot like mine.
The popularity of a shop doesn'timpress me, and also doesn't mean that they do good work. In fact I've had attendees in classes from big name shops, and they were completely lost. By the same token I've had attendees that were from their own one man shop, that no one has ever heard of, and they kick ***. These are the guys that deserve to be invited to shine through our program in most cases. They don't rush, they follow procedure.
That said, I have no idea how many kits that Liam has bought, since all Installers buy their products from a distributor, and I don't sell anyone, anything.
👍
12-06-2016, 11:52 AM
#230
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Sounds like an expert. Not. Find a new Indy.
What he doesn't know is the development of the IMS Solution included a test engine that ran over 400 hours at idle speed. At times I would use an in line valve, with pressure gauge fitted to shut the oil partially off to the IMS solution. I have ran the unit with as little as 2PSI oil pressure, and after a 50 hour study the unit had no more visual, or measurable wear than it did previously. During these tests ambient temps were in the 90s and the engine ran day and night without being shut off, sitting in a test car in the middle of our field, just in case it was to catch fire during the night. Coolant temps were over 240 the entire times, oil temps were 280 degrees plus, and the car would consume 20 gallons of fuel to run for 24 hours, non stop. We didn't even shut it down to refuel it! After the test the car rolled back onto the dyno, and was punished even more
Hear this:
If the Indy was correct the main and Rod bearings in your engine would fail unless the engine was used as a "race engine". Why? This is simple, they are 3-5X bigger than the IMS Solution journal diameter, and have an even greater necessity for oil volume and pressure than the Solution.
This is further proven by the fact that the IMS solution receives its oil directly from the spin on filter adaptor, putting it FIRST in line for oil in the entire primary oil system. That's first before any other dynamic component inside the entire engine. This is part of the novel art that allows the IMS Solution to be Double Patented. This is THE highest oil
pressure found in the entire engine, as it is closest to the oil pump, and offers "just filtered oil" in the highest quantities possible.
This Indy could not be more incorrect. It's clear that he didn't want to do any extra work to fit the IMS Solution over a standard Retrofit and that he was more concerned with the clock than outfitting the engine in the best manner possible.
Please PM me the name and number of the shop, and the tech that told you this. He deserves to hear a few sweet things whispered in his ear. I hate misinformation and people that spew it, when they are clearly, and completely, lost.
I'm send him a video of an IMS Solution equipped engine running with NO oil line attached, both at idle and at 6,000 RPM. The video is from under the car, and oil is leaking out of the IMS Solution feed port, so no way it's fake!
People...........
What he doesn't know is the development of the IMS Solution included a test engine that ran over 400 hours at idle speed. At times I would use an in line valve, with pressure gauge fitted to shut the oil partially off to the IMS solution. I have ran the unit with as little as 2PSI oil pressure, and after a 50 hour study the unit had no more visual, or measurable wear than it did previously. During these tests ambient temps were in the 90s and the engine ran day and night without being shut off, sitting in a test car in the middle of our field, just in case it was to catch fire during the night. Coolant temps were over 240 the entire times, oil temps were 280 degrees plus, and the car would consume 20 gallons of fuel to run for 24 hours, non stop. We didn't even shut it down to refuel it! After the test the car rolled back onto the dyno, and was punished even more
Hear this:
If the Indy was correct the main and Rod bearings in your engine would fail unless the engine was used as a "race engine". Why? This is simple, they are 3-5X bigger than the IMS Solution journal diameter, and have an even greater necessity for oil volume and pressure than the Solution.
This is further proven by the fact that the IMS solution receives its oil directly from the spin on filter adaptor, putting it FIRST in line for oil in the entire primary oil system. That's first before any other dynamic component inside the entire engine. This is part of the novel art that allows the IMS Solution to be Double Patented. This is THE highest oil
pressure found in the entire engine, as it is closest to the oil pump, and offers "just filtered oil" in the highest quantities possible.
This Indy could not be more incorrect. It's clear that he didn't want to do any extra work to fit the IMS Solution over a standard Retrofit and that he was more concerned with the clock than outfitting the engine in the best manner possible.
Please PM me the name and number of the shop, and the tech that told you this. He deserves to hear a few sweet things whispered in his ear. I hate misinformation and people that spew it, when they are clearly, and completely, lost.
I'm send him a video of an IMS Solution equipped engine running with NO oil line attached, both at idle and at 6,000 RPM. The video is from under the car, and oil is leaking out of the IMS Solution feed port, so no way it's fake!
People...........
12-06-2016, 12:07 PM
#231
Racer
I went through this same discussion, mostly with myself, I decided the BEST option is the IMS Solution but the cost was just too much for me from an approved installer. So I went with the LNE ceramic bearing replacement. Not as permanent for sure but should las the life of the car based on my expectations for how long I will keep it. I totally respect Jake, his invention and his knowledge of these cars and engines. If my car was 10 years newer I would have an IMS Solution in place.
12-06-2016, 02:08 PM
#232
I went through this same discussion, mostly with myself, I decided the BEST option is the IMS Solution but the cost was just too much for me from an approved installer. So I went with the LNE ceramic bearing replacement. Not as permanent for sure but should las the life of the car based on my expectations for how long I will keep it. I totally respect Jake, his invention and his knowledge of these cars and engines. If my car was 10 years newer I would have an IMS Solution in place.
. You enjoying your Carrera?I've come to channel any anxiety about the engine into simply reading build threads and trying to learn more about the idiosyncrasies of the engines so when the time comes I can make an informed decision. Maybe even attend a rebuild class and buy a spare motor to learn on. For me the joy of it is encompassing not just the driving experience and refurbishing my own car but learning about the mechanical stuff that used to intimidate me. It's a cool piece of machinery!
12-06-2016, 03:43 PM
#233
Racer
Pretty sound logic . You enjoying your Carrera?
I've come to channel any anxiety about the engine into simply reading build threads and trying to learn more about the idiosyncrasies of the engines so when the time comes I can make an informed decision. Maybe even attend a rebuild class and buy a spare motor to learn on. For me the joy of it is encompassing not just the driving experience and refurbishing my own car but learning about the mechanical stuff that used to intimidate me. It's a cool piece of machinery!
. You enjoying your Carrera?I've come to channel any anxiety about the engine into simply reading build threads and trying to learn more about the idiosyncrasies of the engines so when the time comes I can make an informed decision. Maybe even attend a rebuild class and buy a spare motor to learn on. For me the joy of it is encompassing not just the driving experience and refurbishing my own car but learning about the mechanical stuff that used to intimidate me. It's a cool piece of machinery!
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pointerDixie214 (03-21-2022)
12-06-2016, 04:35 PM
#234
Great to hear, we're on similar journeys it seems. I really like Z cars and Vettes, but the 996 is just a little more enjoyable for all around driving. I did a lot more fun driving this summer in the 996 than last year in the 350z (9,000 miles vs. 3,500).
That audio unit sounds like a nice addition, cheers.
That audio unit sounds like a nice addition, cheers.
12-06-2016, 05:03 PM
#235
Racer
We really love the Vette but much like many new cars, it's almost too antiseptic. I grew up in the 60's and 70's where our involvement in driving was important. It's all I can do to try and stop my kids from texting when they are driving!! But some conveniences are good, like bluetooth for the phone so I went with a Pioneer head unit and some new door speakers. Didn't do a sub because there's really no good place to put one in these cars and the sound is good enough for top down driving.
Myh brother has a 350Z and absolutely love it. So good choice there.
Myh brother has a 350Z and absolutely love it. So good choice there.
12-15-2016, 01:26 PM
#236
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[QUOTE=Flat6 Innovations;13793120]Sounds like an expert. Not. Find a new Indy.
What he doesn't know is the development of the IMS Solution included a test engine that ran over 400 hours at idle speed. At times I would use an in line valve, with pressure gauge fitted to shut the oil partially off to the IMS solution. I have ran the unit with as little as 2PSI oil pressure, and after a 50 hour study the unit had no more visual, or measurable wear than it did previously. During these tests ambient temps were in the 90s and the engine ran day and night without being shut off, sitting in a test car in the middle of our field, just in case it was to catch fire during the night. Coolant temps were over 240 the entire times, oil temps were 280 degrees plus, and the car would consume 20 gallons of fuel to run for 24 hours, non stop. We didn't even shut it down to refuel it! After the test the car rolled back onto the dyno, and was punished even more
Hear this:
If the Indy was correct the main and Rod bearings in your engine would fail unless the engine was used as a "race engine". Why? This is simple, they are 3-5X bigger than the IMS Solution journal diameter, and have an even greater necessity for oil volume and pressure than the Solution.
This is further proven by the fact that the IMS solution receives its oil directly from the spin on filter adaptor, putting it FIRST in line for oil in the entire primary oil system. That's first before any other dynamic component inside the entire engine. This is part of the novel art that allows the IMS Solution to be Double Patented. This is THE highest oil
pressure found in the entire engine, as it is closest to the oil pump, and offers "just filtered oil" in the highest quantities possible.
This Indy could not be more incorrect. It's clear that he didn't want to do any extra work to fit the IMS Solution over a standard Retrofit and that he was more concerned with the clock than outfitting the engine in the best manner possible.
Please PM me the name and number of the shop, and the tech that told you this. He deserves to hear a few sweet things whispered in his ear. I hate misinformation and people that spew it, when they are clearly, and completely, lost.
I'm send him a video of an IMS Solution equipped engine running with NO oil line attached, both at idle and at 6,000 RPM. The video is from under the car, and oil is leaking out of the IMS Solution feed port, so no way it's fake!
People...........[/QUOTe
Jack - You say that you are a local certified installer for anybody on the east coast. How would you get a car from New York to your shop in Georgia and what would be the cost?
What he doesn't know is the development of the IMS Solution included a test engine that ran over 400 hours at idle speed. At times I would use an in line valve, with pressure gauge fitted to shut the oil partially off to the IMS solution. I have ran the unit with as little as 2PSI oil pressure, and after a 50 hour study the unit had no more visual, or measurable wear than it did previously. During these tests ambient temps were in the 90s and the engine ran day and night without being shut off, sitting in a test car in the middle of our field, just in case it was to catch fire during the night. Coolant temps were over 240 the entire times, oil temps were 280 degrees plus, and the car would consume 20 gallons of fuel to run for 24 hours, non stop. We didn't even shut it down to refuel it! After the test the car rolled back onto the dyno, and was punished even more
Hear this:
If the Indy was correct the main and Rod bearings in your engine would fail unless the engine was used as a "race engine". Why? This is simple, they are 3-5X bigger than the IMS Solution journal diameter, and have an even greater necessity for oil volume and pressure than the Solution.
This is further proven by the fact that the IMS solution receives its oil directly from the spin on filter adaptor, putting it FIRST in line for oil in the entire primary oil system. That's first before any other dynamic component inside the entire engine. This is part of the novel art that allows the IMS Solution to be Double Patented. This is THE highest oil
pressure found in the entire engine, as it is closest to the oil pump, and offers "just filtered oil" in the highest quantities possible.
This Indy could not be more incorrect. It's clear that he didn't want to do any extra work to fit the IMS Solution over a standard Retrofit and that he was more concerned with the clock than outfitting the engine in the best manner possible.
Please PM me the name and number of the shop, and the tech that told you this. He deserves to hear a few sweet things whispered in his ear. I hate misinformation and people that spew it, when they are clearly, and completely, lost.
I'm send him a video of an IMS Solution equipped engine running with NO oil line attached, both at idle and at 6,000 RPM. The video is from under the car, and oil is leaking out of the IMS Solution feed port, so no way it's fake!
People...........[/QUOTe
Jack - You say that you are a local certified installer for anybody on the east coast. How would you get a car from New York to your shop in Georgia and what would be the cost?
12-15-2016, 01:58 PM
#237
Former Vendor
Jack - You say that you are a local certified installer for anybody on the east coast. How would you get a car from New York to your shop in Georgia and what would be the cost?
Shipping costs averages 75 cents per mile, so just Google the distance from wherever you are, to 30528 which is our zip code. At times Jud can negotiate with our shippers to 55-65 cents per mile, but thats dependent upon season, weather, fuel costs, and etc.
We shipped five cars last week, two this week, and have three ready go next week. Its a blessing when someone local works with us, but it seldom, seldom occurs.
12-16-2016, 10:19 AM
#238
Rennlist Member
The same way that we land cars from much further away. This week we are performing an IMS Solution on two cars, and one is from Canada. We ship over 100 Porsches per year to and from our facilities, and we are shipping brokers, so we can do this work as a free service to the customer. This is no big deal, Jud, my General Manager spends most of his time shipping Porsches.
Shipping costs averages 75 cents per mile, so just Google the distance from wherever you are, to 30528 which is our zip code. At times Jud can negotiate with our shippers to 55-65 cents per mile, but thats dependent upon season, weather, fuel costs, and etc.
We shipped five cars last week, two this week, and have three ready go next week. Its a blessing when someone local works with us, but it seldom, seldom occurs.
Shipping costs averages 75 cents per mile, so just Google the distance from wherever you are, to 30528 which is our zip code. At times Jud can negotiate with our shippers to 55-65 cents per mile, but thats dependent upon season, weather, fuel costs, and etc.
We shipped five cars last week, two this week, and have three ready go next week. Its a blessing when someone local works with us, but it seldom, seldom occurs.
12-16-2016, 12:04 PM
#239
Former Vendor
01-11-2017, 03:51 PM
#240
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Interesting conversation in a couple of other threads on earl Mk.1 996 cars with double bearing. If it has run sofar the conversation goes, don't touch it and leave it be.
With all I have read sofar my conclusion has been, also for a double bearing, that it makes sense if you change the clutch to also change the bearing. Since the car I purchased did not have the bearing replaced during the clutch change 30k miles ago I decided (since I have EVERY intend to keep the car for many years to come) to replace now the IMS to a ceramic LN double bearing, replace clutch, RMS and AOS. Car has ran 90k miles sofar.
Next on planning would be waterpump, vario-cam wear pads and 4th/5th timing chains (no intelligence there from my side, just following the cue from Jack Raby (thank you Sir!!)).
Anyway, back to IMS double row bearing....what is nowadays the latest recommendation?
Volkert
With all I have read sofar my conclusion has been, also for a double bearing, that it makes sense if you change the clutch to also change the bearing. Since the car I purchased did not have the bearing replaced during the clutch change 30k miles ago I decided (since I have EVERY intend to keep the car for many years to come) to replace now the IMS to a ceramic LN double bearing, replace clutch, RMS and AOS. Car has ran 90k miles sofar.
Next on planning would be waterpump, vario-cam wear pads and 4th/5th timing chains (no intelligence there from my side, just following the cue from Jack Raby (thank you Sir!!)).
Anyway, back to IMS double row bearing....what is nowadays the latest recommendation?
Volkert
Last edited by Volkert; 01-12-2017 at 09:06 AM.