2004 GT3 coilovers for 996C2
08-07-2010, 05:26 PM
#63
Nordschleife Master
Wow, I unsubscribe and then check back in to see what's happening and I get this? I love it! Good old fashion Rennlist banter.
Carry on fellas, you seem to been having a blast
Carry on fellas, you seem to been having a blast
08-07-2010, 05:44 PM
#64
Nordschleife Master
TD,
Now that I have seen you decided to drop a grenade in the racing forum (if that wasn't your intent, then you have my apologies) I'm bailing on this since you are getting the same explanations (in as many words) that I have given and some just want to argue and slander (cough cough, Paul).
Nobody said you can't run them on the GT3 suspension. You just cannot align and setup the car to take advantage of the grip of the tire and will be wasting your money burning through a tire that is not matched well with the stock setup. But, and a big but, you add the proper components to the GT3 (which we all have done) you can run the tires as they are designed maximizing grip, life, etc.
The stress you will put on a stock suspension will send you down the path of replacement anyway so you might as well get the proper setup before heading down that path and do it right in the first place.
Back to enjoying my vacation
Now that I have seen you decided to drop a grenade in the racing forum (if that wasn't your intent, then you have my apologies) I'm bailing on this since you are getting the same explanations (in as many words) that I have given and some just want to argue and slander (cough cough, Paul).
Nobody said you can't run them on the GT3 suspension. You just cannot align and setup the car to take advantage of the grip of the tire and will be wasting your money burning through a tire that is not matched well with the stock setup. But, and a big but, you add the proper components to the GT3 (which we all have done) you can run the tires as they are designed maximizing grip, life, etc.
The stress you will put on a stock suspension will send you down the path of replacement anyway so you might as well get the proper setup before heading down that path and do it right in the first place.
Back to enjoying my vacation
08-07-2010, 05:53 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
..
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 12-14-2010 at 05:25 PM.
08-07-2010, 05:54 PM
#66
Rennlist Member
Slander?? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander
puhleese...
Being given the same explanation? oh really?
And now the back pedaling begins.
puhleese...
Being given the same explanation? oh really?
And now the back pedaling begins.
08-07-2010, 06:08 PM
#67
Nordschleife Master
Paul, quit trying to start bait. It's obvious. **READ YOUR DEFINITION AGAIN AS YOU MIGHT HAVE GLOSSED IT OVER** You go after my race shop and then try to talk above your level. Please. Give it a rest as I don't care to get into it with you.
Dave, you gotta do better than that! The pics we yearn for are the NSFW type
Unsubscribing........
...unless of course the "pics" start appearing
Dave, you gotta do better than that! The pics we yearn for are the NSFW type
Unsubscribing........
...unless of course the "pics" start appearing
08-07-2010, 06:20 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Exactly when did I "go after" your race shop? By saying you are drinking their cool aid? lighten up. You self admittedly stated that you went in for a shock revalve and new springs and walked out with a $20K suspension upgrade.
So what exactly is "above my level", now it is starting to get interesting.
Dell, you seem to forget that you have come a long way in the last 3 or so years and that some of us have been at this since the late 80s. But it is still cute to see you on your soapbox.
So what exactly is "above my level", now it is starting to get interesting.
Dell, you seem to forget that you have come a long way in the last 3 or so years and that some of us have been at this since the late 80s. But it is still cute to see you on your soapbox.
08-07-2010, 06:23 PM
#70
Nordschleife Master
Good for you Paul. But not sure I'd admit to being at this for 20+ years and still not knowing what your talking about. Enjoy talking to yourself. Off to the ignore list for you.........
08-07-2010, 06:35 PM
#71
Well, I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I really want to understand the dynamics.
It seems that there are PLENTY of R-comp tires that generate high grip levels on par with R6s [perhaps slightly lower for some tires]. If there is some "issue" with matching R6s to a suspension, then all of these R-comps tires will suffer the same fate. Thus, it seems to me that you can never really "match" any R-com tire to a GT3 suspension until you do a suspension upgrade. If that is the case, then you are not "losing" anything extra by R6s over another R-comp, except by degrees. The answer would be to upgrade regardless of what tire you are running.
And if it is actually true that R6s cannot be maximized with stock components, is there a quantitative amount that is left on the table? 1%? 10%? 25%? And which of the stock components result in this deficiency?
Like I said, I'm not trying to stir the pot - just trying get my head around this information. Perhaps it is a disjointed collection of snippits on the web - but I haven't even found a starting point to evaluate it.
-td
It seems that there are PLENTY of R-comp tires that generate high grip levels on par with R6s [perhaps slightly lower for some tires]. If there is some "issue" with matching R6s to a suspension, then all of these R-comps tires will suffer the same fate. Thus, it seems to me that you can never really "match" any R-com tire to a GT3 suspension until you do a suspension upgrade. If that is the case, then you are not "losing" anything extra by R6s over another R-comp, except by degrees. The answer would be to upgrade regardless of what tire you are running.
And if it is actually true that R6s cannot be maximized with stock components, is there a quantitative amount that is left on the table? 1%? 10%? 25%? And which of the stock components result in this deficiency?
Like I said, I'm not trying to stir the pot - just trying get my head around this information. Perhaps it is a disjointed collection of snippits on the web - but I haven't even found a starting point to evaluate it.
-td
08-07-2010, 06:45 PM
#72
Nordschleife Master
Didn't think so since I know our banter over on GT3 seems to be a notch above. Anyway, it'd be great if we could spend some time together at the track comparing cars, tires, different setups, and of course talk about it over a beer 
It's hard to get into percentages, etc, but I can tell you that my progression with the GT3 from stock from to proper track suspension was really explained well by feeling what each tire did with each suspension component. I spent a ton of time and was very methodically about what to move to and when to do it. I asked a lot of questions along the way to really understand what was happening. Sure, I could have gone straight to the R6 but it made no sense with the stock suspension. Would never have been able to maximize what the tire could give me in stock form.
Anyway, I am sure there are those that will be able to give a great technical explanation over in the racing forum.
The obvious explanation is that everybody can't afford to upgrade and match suspension in a way that does it right so it gets pieced together over time. IMHO, throwing a set of R6's (especially for a DE) on a car that is not "properly" setup for them is throwing money out the window. But then again, isn't that the very nature of this sport to begin with?
It's hard to get into percentages, etc, but I can tell you that my progression with the GT3 from stock from to proper track suspension was really explained well by feeling what each tire did with each suspension component. I spent a ton of time and was very methodically about what to move to and when to do it. I asked a lot of questions along the way to really understand what was happening. Sure, I could have gone straight to the R6 but it made no sense with the stock suspension. Would never have been able to maximize what the tire could give me in stock form.
Anyway, I am sure there are those that will be able to give a great technical explanation over in the racing forum.
The obvious explanation is that everybody can't afford to upgrade and match suspension in a way that does it right so it gets pieced together over time. IMHO, throwing a set of R6's (especially for a DE) on a car that is not "properly" setup for them is throwing money out the window. But then again, isn't that the very nature of this sport to begin with?
08-07-2010, 08:42 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
td/Himself,
Start here (a classic):
http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-...1224159&sr=1-1
And then if you're really up to it, here:
http://books.sae.org/book-r-372
On the spectrum between street tires and slicks, R6s are closer to slicks, especially in comparison to other R-compound tires that are loosely grouped in the same category. You really do need high camber angles, and suspension components that both allow and maintain optimal alignment under loading to use these tires to their full advantage.
In general, a higher grip, higher spring rate tire is a bad combination for a low spring rate rubber bushing equipped car.
Read those books
Start here (a classic):
http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-...1224159&sr=1-1
And then if you're really up to it, here:
http://books.sae.org/book-r-372
On the spectrum between street tires and slicks, R6s are closer to slicks, especially in comparison to other R-compound tires that are loosely grouped in the same category. You really do need high camber angles, and suspension components that both allow and maintain optimal alignment under loading to use these tires to their full advantage.
In general, a higher grip, higher spring rate tire is a bad combination for a low spring rate rubber bushing equipped car.
Read those books
