Palting

$10K or 20% is definitely NOT a "no brainer value".

Here's one way of looking at it. When I was looking at the brand new C4S back in '02, MSRP was close to $90K. TT brand new was close to $120K. That's a $30K (30%) diff. To me, it wasn't worth it then. That's how I decided to get the C4S. Now, currently, the $10K (20%) diff "may" be worth it.

Here's another way to look at it. $10K is $10k. For $10k less, I get all the power I need, all the options I want, in a body style I like better, in a newer car. The $10K more I spend on a TT buys me intangibles I don't really care about. The C4S plus any $10k worth of goodies (I dunno, a really big widescreen HD TV maybe?) will bring me more joy.

Which way do you want to look at it? It's a quandary, for sure. But, it's fun, isn't it ?

Good luck, have fun. There is NO wrong choice. Either one will get you an excellent Porsche.

BruceP

This is more true for Porsches than for any other car I've ever driven.

Can an M3 beat a C4S? I dunno. Maybe.

Can anybody driving an M3 beat an experienced Porsche pilot in a C4S? An entirely different question. There are people out there who can drive fast, and there are people out there who can drive 911s fast. The new M3 gives up 6 seconds to a 997 C2S on the 'ring. The E46 M3 was only 6 seconds faster than the much older 993 C2... with the 993 being driven by the same guy as all the aforementioned BMWs, Horst von Saurma. (The E46 M3 was slower than an E60 M5, by the way). So why didn't the Bimmers beat up on the Porsches? Why was the 997 in a league of its own? It's not in the numbers. It's Rohrl. Some people know how to make 911s go fast.

So it ends up being a silly debate. ***** out with the best of breed driver in each car, my money is on the P-car, always. You versus me on a track day? Moot. I just don't think you can bench race a 911.

arr0gant

Right, $10k is one thing...but $3 to $5k, a whole 'nother thing.

arr0gant

Right on, Bruce. I said it would be a good race with an M3. Ben said "You have 0 chance of beating an M3!" Dissing my car and calling it the "slowest 911." Alas, this was back when he drove an M3 and I drove a C4S.

Benjamin Choi

I'd go further and say that this is all hairsplitting which goes back to the point that the E46 M3 and the C4S are in the same perf ballpark and heck, I'd say someone driving a GT3 shouldn't be overly confident that somehow the other guy with equal skills is going to be outright slower around an insanely long course like the 'ring cuz he's not driving the faster car on paper. In real terms, let's just think about how chicken **** most of would be sitting in a damn Civic let alone a 911 looking at miles and miles of turns. We can sit here and armchair QB all day, but all I know is, when I had my S2000 out on the track for a day's worth of schooling... I was totally fine with my "torqueless" wonder. It was FAST for me.

Benjamin Choi

Yes, back then I had little to no experience driving a C4S. Now I know better. I know that the C4S would still be neck and neck with an E46 M3.

And I have driven better now with the 997TT. I have driven the 996 GT3 and I realize how much I don't like lag even in the not supposed to be laggy at all 997TT. I did get to drive the 996TT and it was laggier than the 997TT. The TT models sound no where near as inspiring as the NA versions. Period. I got to drive the F360. Certainly slower than the TTs, but oh SO SUPERIOR.

Clearly, the hp/tq package is superior with forced induction, but like in so many things in life, there are the downsides.

And in both cases, my M3 and my C4S are still more desireable than either of your lightly optioned, bone stock 911s past and present. LOL

bitterazn

arr0gant -

thanks a bunch for the top gear clip. watching season 7 is actually what made me initially think about buying a car, since they seemed to be having so much fun on the track. that led me to look at porsches which has led me here.

i'll definitely think pretty long and hard about the TT if I can find it w/in a reasonable range ($2-3k extra). i just fear it's going to be more like $10k when mileage, model year, and warranty are all factored in.

arr0gant

Good points , Bitter. I think the bottom line is, if you look hard enough for the same year/options/miles, there will in fact be about a $10k difference. In other words, if you find a well optioned, low mile 2002 C4S for $48, that SAME 911 in TT form will be $58k.

Benjamin Choi

$10K is it and I recommend that you drive a TT as well; figure out what it is you want all things considered.

BruceP

Oh, it ON.

BruceP

That's because the track was its natural element, young man. Low end grunt is of minimal value on a racetrack.

What I'd like to do, and I'd recommend the same to you, is sit in the bitch seat while someone who really knows 911s drives my car on the track. Up to 8/10ths, a 911 is point-and-shoot, like any car. Past that, it really is it's own thing. I'd love to just study someone really good at it. From all reports, these things have limits higher than most of us have the guts for.

Then I'm going to try it myself. I would be interesting to get your perspective on the M3 after you'd tracked your car. Not saying it's better or worse, but it's damn sure different. And there is a reason the 911 - even the 996, the Rodney Dangerfield of Porsches - enjoys the affection it does with racers.

C4CRNA

bitterazn: Look at porschenashua.com They will be less high pressure than Chambers.Not too far north of Boston.

arr0gant

If you can't spend the extra $10k, DO NOT drive the Turbo!!

I was all set to buy a 2005 997S and I drove a brand new one (2007 at the time), I LOVED IT and I told my salesman to get me an 05! The next weekend my salesman from Parktown Porsche called and said, I didn't find you an '05 Carrera S, but we did get a CPO '01 TT, I know it's not what you want, just come drive it.....you know the rest!

Benjamin Choi

I think you're making the 911 out to be a more special drive than what it really is and it makes sense because we tend to aggrandize those things that we hold dear. Rationally and irrationally. Heck, the Z3 that the instructor took me around in was... crazy FAST... due to the driver and tires.

A TON of cars these days have limits higher than what most of us have the guts for as you say. Lower power cars like the Civic Si. Good power cars like the Evo and STIs. I did enjoy attending the "racing" school and I learned a lot. I learned to respect a lot of cars out there; humbled me all the same. I learned to respect the guys who are the track nerds, yet given how much of a hobby and $ spend it is, make fun of those nerds who think they're the man behind the wheel. It simply comes down to where you invest your time. Talent has little to do with it cuz if it did, people would be paying you to drive fast.

And I think it's not going way out of the box to say the rear-engine layout is fundamentally flawed, but for some crazy reason it's survived this long in this car. Timing and luck has something to do with it (a part of what makes the 911 special). Porsche 911 engineers are awesome cuz they've successfully masked a white elephant of a flaw for so many decades.

The E46 M3 drives great with a crazy nice engine, but it just doesn't sound unique and doesn't steer as well as the 911. I love the E46 M3 and I'm sure I'd enjoy driving the E92 version. But, again, the 911 N/A cars just sound soooo good and have so much history - truly a delight.

And given this history, I've come to appreciate the GT3 all the more as it stays truest to Porsche motorsport. I mean it's the badrase GT1 engine with all the special high-rev bits that the forced induction models do not have. It's lighter. It's RWD which I do miss about the M3 as there's a distinct alacrity missing with the crazy, confidence-inspiring grip of AWD.

I want a 997 GT3 in arctic silver. I'd add Techart sideskirts, lower it on a set of Champion RG5s for the street and call it a day!

htny

bitter, my own revised advice: go out and buy the cheapest facelift CPO 911 you can get your hands on in the color you want in the trim you need, beat the snot out of it for a couple of years. You'll worry less about all the pleasant traffic, parking, salt, and weather Boston has to offer, learn how to drive a fast car properly, and graduate to a Carrera S or Turbo or GT3 or Carrera GT or Cruise Missile or whatever you want to drive when you've had your fun with it.

Moreover, I think paying 54K for an 04 996 C4S is not a great idea, personally speaking, not with 05 997 prices where they are now that lease-returns are coming in. If you're going to drop that money, I think cheapest CPO 997 is the way to go from many angles, especially depreciation-wise. New Country in Greenwich has an 05 silver CPO 997 for 55K, there's an 05 CPO in Danbury for 59. Figure you'll knock something off these prices and get the updated interior and body style, same power, close weight for close to what you're trying to spend here. NO they won't keep up with a 996 turbo at 10/10ths or in a drag race, but by your own admission you might not keep up with the turbo either, and if you don't have time for a test drive I have a feeling you won't be tracking the car or hooning around drag strips. Check porscheusa.com for CPO inventory