What is an overev?
Race Car
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palting...no personal attack, but did you call them? I would so NO...so I give you the info and you ignore it....you have your opinions...and there are those who know...I will go with the ones who know.
Peace out.
Peace out.
Ironman 140.6
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I'm not sure why Palting needs to make phone calls to prove your point. If you have proof for your position why don't you just post it?
It seems to me he made a very fair offer a few post back and now you want him to do the legwork to prove your point? I don't get it.
Race Car
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Point me to the right website or scan and upload what Stephen (Stephen who?) and Kevin (Kevin who?) had to say about type 2 vs type 1 over-rev. Then, we can talk about it. None of this name dropping. I want to see or hear directly from an acknowledged expert
Yes I guess you don't get it...sorry don't know how to help your reading comprehension.
Ironman 140.6
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I only pointed it out because the 6,750 rpm trigger point that is listed in that thread is below the redline for these cars.
I'm speaking for myself.
I provided links to posts where both of these experts have responded to the type 2 question. Forget name dropping...he said he wanted to hear directly from them, so I posted their websites (Stephen is also the PCA designated turbo expert). What part of this don't you get?.
I hope this post doesn't draw another angry response.
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OK, I'll keep it civil, accept my appologies...I can't read what benji said, but I'm sure it added some true technical value.
Here is my opinion:
Over revs are a function of the rpms (certainly some cars have higher redline than others). Type 1's happen when you hit the rev limiter (DME controlled). I think we can all agree to that. The question is how do type 2's occur. It is when the rpms exceed some DME specified limit. How can this occur? Certainly we all agree that if you miss a shift and mechanically over rev (force rpms above the DME set limit) type 2's will be recorded. There are also cases (more than one) where type 2's are recorded by exceeding the DME limit without missing a shift (mechanical over rev). Perhaps wheel spin with high torque can accomplish this. The fact that type 2's have been recorded without a misshift and the possibility of this non-mechanical over rev condition have been confirmed by several technical experts. Cheers.
Here is my opinion:
Over revs are a function of the rpms (certainly some cars have higher redline than others). Type 1's happen when you hit the rev limiter (DME controlled). I think we can all agree to that. The question is how do type 2's occur. It is when the rpms exceed some DME specified limit. How can this occur? Certainly we all agree that if you miss a shift and mechanically over rev (force rpms above the DME set limit) type 2's will be recorded. There are also cases (more than one) where type 2's are recorded by exceeding the DME limit without missing a shift (mechanical over rev). Perhaps wheel spin with high torque can accomplish this. The fact that type 2's have been recorded without a misshift and the possibility of this non-mechanical over rev condition have been confirmed by several technical experts. Cheers.
Ironman 140.6
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From: North Carolina
OK, I'll keep it civil, accept my appologies...I can't read what benji said, but I'm sure it added some true technical value.
Here is my opinion:
Over revs are a function of the rpms (certainly some cars have higher redline than others). Type 1's happen when you hit the rev limiter (DME controlled). I think we can all agree to that. The question is how do type 2's occur. It is when the rpms exceed some DME specified limit. How can this occur? Certainly we all agree that if you miss a shift and mechanically over rev (force rpms above the DME set limit) type 2's will be recorded. There are also cases (more than one) where type 2's are recorded by exceeding the DME limit without missing a shift (mechanical over rev). Perhaps wheel spin with high torque can accomplish this. The fact that type 2's have been recorded without a misshift and the possibility of this non-mechanical over rev condition have been confirmed by several technical experts. Cheers.
Here is my opinion:
Over revs are a function of the rpms (certainly some cars have higher redline than others). Type 1's happen when you hit the rev limiter (DME controlled). I think we can all agree to that. The question is how do type 2's occur. It is when the rpms exceed some DME specified limit. How can this occur? Certainly we all agree that if you miss a shift and mechanically over rev (force rpms above the DME set limit) type 2's will be recorded. There are also cases (more than one) where type 2's are recorded by exceeding the DME limit without missing a shift (mechanical over rev). Perhaps wheel spin with high torque can accomplish this. The fact that type 2's have been recorded without a misshift and the possibility of this non-mechanical over rev condition have been confirmed by several technical experts. Cheers.
I don't really know what causes a type II. I had always heard that they were caused by a botched downshift which forces the engine past the limiter. However, the info you posted is very interesting. Thanks for posting it.
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Michael S. Palmer
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Wow Ben, you have to quit swearing at Wross and calling his mother names!!
Here is another thread of people trying to figure this out. I would tend to believe someone who has the car hooked up to a dyno and can get immediate feedback, like the previously mentioned tuners. It does seem like a shortcoming in the 996 design to have such a narrow margin between type I and type II. I guess we will all have to buy 997s.
http://forum.pcasdr.org/forum/viewto...94f07a4fe7479f
Here is another thread of people trying to figure this out. I would tend to believe someone who has the car hooked up to a dyno and can get immediate feedback, like the previously mentioned tuners. It does seem like a shortcoming in the 996 design to have such a narrow margin between type I and type II. I guess we will all have to buy 997s.
http://forum.pcasdr.org/forum/viewto...94f07a4fe7479f
Race Car
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Nordschleife Master
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From: North Eastern US
BTW, I still have not seen factual proof
Race Car
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Please define factual proof
I gave you 2 links with posters that have recorded type 2 revs without a mechanical misshift. Those posts included testimonies from 2 well respected technical experts. This is more data than you have supplied regarding your hypothesis.
And yes this is quite fun
I gave you 2 links with posters that have recorded type 2 revs without a mechanical misshift. Those posts included testimonies from 2 well respected technical experts. This is more data than you have supplied regarding your hypothesis.And yes this is quite fun
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: North Eastern US
Factual = Based of fact. Several tests under controlled conditions yielding simillar results. Conclusions are clear and cannot be contested.
Anecdotal = based on personal experience. Conditions vary, and can vary significantly. Can also de tilted towards bias of the tester. As in "I placed my car on a lift hooked to a dyno, floored it, and got level2". As in "I have inadvertently hit the rev limiter several times but never missed a shift and have only level 1, no level 2". Conclusions vary, and only opinions can be offered based on reasonable assumptions, not fact. All opinions could be wrong, or all could be right. The only thing definitely wrong is to opine that your opinion is the only right or real one, and that everyone else giving a different opinion is wrong and giving out misinformation.
Fun, isn't it
?
Anecdotal = based on personal experience. Conditions vary, and can vary significantly. Can also de tilted towards bias of the tester. As in "I placed my car on a lift hooked to a dyno, floored it, and got level2". As in "I have inadvertently hit the rev limiter several times but never missed a shift and have only level 1, no level 2". Conclusions vary, and only opinions can be offered based on reasonable assumptions, not fact. All opinions could be wrong, or all could be right. The only thing definitely wrong is to opine that your opinion is the only right or real one, and that everyone else giving a different opinion is wrong and giving out misinformation.
Fun, isn't it
?
Last edited by Palting; Mar 16, 2008 at 02:40 PM.
Race Car
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Funny you define factual by using the word fact....(the root)here is another one..."a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred"(WordReference)...I can play with words too...and post the reference.
This is of course unrealistic and improper testing (read about fractional and full factorials...experiments run in noisy environments). I will be happy to provide papers from world renowned Statisticians.
This is also unrealistic, heck we still contest F=ma at the quantum level.
How is it the information posted in this thread met any of the criteria you post here?
Absolutely AGREE...that is why I posted the original link as it seems that most folks were posting their opinions as though they were truths (BTW a truth is different than a fact).
Lastly, what really got me excited was your insinuating that the two gentlemen I referred to are guilty of changing the limiter in the DME
...Is misleading (unless you have first hand knowledge)...They are quite knowledgeable and respected and your comments were inflammatory.
This is a blast, but I'm sure we're pissing off most readers....so I'll let you get the final post...enjoy.
This is of course unrealistic and improper testing (read about fractional and full factorials...experiments run in noisy environments). I will be happy to provide papers from world renowned Statisticians.
This is also unrealistic, heck we still contest F=ma at the quantum level.
How is it the information posted in this thread met any of the criteria you post here?
Lastly, what really got me excited was your insinuating that the two gentlemen I referred to are guilty of changing the limiter in the DME
They talk about raising the rev limiter, erasing recorded type 2 over-rev records. I am not as savvy as they are, but they are talking about cheating on the car designed parameters. That is what they do
This is a blast, but I'm sure we're pissing off most readers....so I'll let you get the final post...enjoy.
