Benjamin Choi

Do you understand that you have to go to insanely illegal speed limits to even begin to test the adhesion limits of a stock C4S let alone one with a much wider track like mine? It should be rather obvious to someone who purports to have a grip on "handling balance" that running a setup like mine is clearly meant for a street driven 911.

Let me ask though, do you seriously have the racing credibility to even begin to exploit "throttle inputs at threshold"? If you do have that experience and background from having driven multiple setups to even begin to speak with any sort of authority (lots of authority in the quoted statements above), then show us what you got, where you've been, what you've done as you go gonzo as an internet QB speedracer.

I never once said use my setup to maximize the handling performance of your ride. What I'm saying is go out and just enjoy the drive because if you guys are sitting there with the flat6 humming behind you on your local roads or hwy headed to run some errands thinking "I bet you with the N-specs I'd show that family in minivan next to me defcon5 level "tire-slip angle" and "polar moment of interia" they ain't never seen... you really, really need to get your head on straight and realize...

YOU drive a STREET car and you don't make $$$$ off racing your 911. If you do, great, I'll shut up, respect and listen. The probability is you're just another racer wannabe keyboard track star wanting some sort of recognition on the forum that you know all that there is to maximize the performance of the 911.

and while you're busy splitting hairs about letters or lackof on a tire... it's clear, you look at the 19x12s rollin, deep dish, non N-spec 315/25/19s lowered on the street and it's no question that it's one bad **** motherfuqin ride.



What's also clear is... lay off the doughnuts. They're bad for ya and add unecessary weight.

BruceP

I think for a lot of guys, it's not about being 'good enough for the street'. Do I drive my car at its limits? No. Guilty as charged. Most of the time, I'd be fine on all-season tires. For that matter, most of the time I don't even need all six cylinders or all 300 hp, and you probably don't either. The thing is - just speaking for myself, here - I know what the car is meant for, and I get some satisfaction from that whether I'm using its potential or not. And I don't like compromising that potentiality. I would feel MUCH more like a poseur if my car was dumbed down to the level of performance I need from it on a typical day. I want it set up for the maximum performance envelope that I, in my fevered middle-aged brain, think I might want to use if the opportunity presented itself.

I have lots of stuff that's better than it needs to be. Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, plenty of us do, whether we're talking about cars, bikes, watches, guns, televisions or kitchen appliances. It's fun. I don't judge you for a second making the choices you do about your car, which I think is a pretty sweet whip. But let me have my racer fantasy, 'cuz every once in awhile it's real and I enjoy the fact that my car is up for it.

End of sermon.

Benjamin Choi

and i am the same way, bruce. i have pss9s, i have quality work wheels, i run top notch street tires... so because my rears are non nspec, someone's going to be able to make that distinction by driving my car? somehow my c4s the way it's setup is lesser than someone else's carrera on nspec? trying to define compromising or maximizing the full potential of your 911 and mine... is a silly task.

pls.

BruceP

I think two issues got confused, here.

N-spec: Debatable from a handling point of view. The only evidence on the table is Porsche's endorsement, and a lot of anecdotes from either camp.

Wider rear tires: Not debatable. Proportionally wider tires in the back of any car will promote understeer near the limit. That's just how it is. Add AWD, and the effect gets magnified some because your ability to steer with the throttle is muted. Does that mean it's slower? Only a stopwatch will settle that. But there is no question about how it changes the handling. The result is either a matter of personal preference (as a former BMW pilot, you're used to cars that tend toward understeer), or it's a compromise you make in exchange for the look you want (and which you could manage to some extent by monkeying with your tire pressures).

Guys who drive stock tire sizes at stock pressures on N-spec tires are getting 'Porsche:Unplugged'. Guys who change any or all of the above are riffing on it, and the results can be better, worse or just different.

Benjamin Choi

exactly. and hopefully this will happen but i will gladly run with you sir bruce on a nice canyon run or whatever you guys have up there in canada and i tell ya, i ain't gonna be far away from ya cuz i'm running 315s in the back.

all that n spec whatever.. easily usurped by driver, ball size, whetheryou took a dump before the run, too many factors... minutiae.

jury_ca

I think I'm a good authority on how a stock C4S drives. Look at my avatar. My car is factory (ROW M-030) suspension the way the Porsche Gods intended.
And no, you don't have to go insanely illegal speed limits to test the adhesion limit of a stock C4S. Just because it's a Porsche doesn't mean the incremental cornering grip are significantly higher than that of a hopped-up 3-Series.

How exactly does your set-up improve the streetability of your 911? Is the ride improved? No. Does it track better on the hwy? No. On anything other than glass smooth pavement, you will have to make a greater number of steering corrections to keep the car on track.

How about responding with a technical argument based on physics rather than relying on some invalid genetic fallacy to dispute my point?

Actually, what's amusing is that you seem to take offense at anyone that suggests your mods have been done for cosmetics rather than performance. In fact, it's blatantly obvious that your mods have been done for street-creed with its faux-performance image rather than positively affecting performance. Why are body-builders poor swimmers? If you understand the analogy, you'd know that throwing on a set of wider wheels, and a big spoiler does not mean the car will perform any better!

What's also clear is that your vehicle would not pass a TueV inspection and would not be allowed on the roads in Germany.

Hahaha. I'm sure there's a pic of me floating about somewhere here, and I'd wager I'm in better shape than you.

chago996

Roberga, your PS2 are N-rated because they are O.E. on the GT3. But I think your rear tires are 295, not 285 according to the tire rack configurator for the PS2. The PS2 weren't available in '01 when my C2 was made. In any case, the same size PS2 non-N rated tire for your car has a different load rating than the N-rated one. So, there's proof that they are different (N vs non-N)

Benjamin Choi

-PSS9 ride is much improved over stock and corroborated by a good number of folks who have also gone this way. No issues keeping the car on track so not sure at what sort of frequency your Porsche gods are intervening for you via your PSM module in Vancouver, BC.

-I would venture that neither of us are engineers or scientists who can even begin to break down the differences between your setup and mine so this is completely absurd

-I am consistent about my car being a street Porsche just like yours is. No offense taken, but the thing is, very few people actually point at my car and make any comments about it other than nice car.

-My car doesn't drive any worse than a stock C4S; in fact, I would speculate that it drives better and faster than your stock C4S. But we'll likely never find out, right? You're more than welcome to meet me here in Seattle and we can do some runs. You're free to drive my car to see how the non N-spec rears do. You can bust out your calculator and flux capacitor or whatever it is that you have to make your measurements and gathery our data.

-I don't know what TUV has anything to do with my US registered car.

-Better shape than me? Since you refer to a pic, post it up right here and show us what's up instead of yapping about it. And then we can do like bench press, 400M dash, film it and post it up on youtube and entertain our Rennlist brethren. How about it?

BruceP

Oh, lord, please stop. This is starting to get a bit Top Gun for my taste. Next you'll be snapping wet towels at each other.

Couldn't you just do a whose-girlfriend-looks-best-in-lingerie thing?

Or maybe who can PayPal me the most money? Something like that?

Just sayin'.

Benjamin Choi

LOLOLOLLLLLLL i can play the girls for rennlist thing no sweat lets see if this homeboy rennlist guest from vancouver will step up instead of hiding behind his keyboard playing porsche scientist

Blackness

I don't care about seeing any buff dudes. I vote for the girlfriend-in-lingerie pics to settle the score!

nycebo

I am ROTFLMAO. Flux capacitor. I love it. Always use the same reference whenever I have discussion like this myself.

Anyway, all this stuff is nonsensical on the street. We do it because it makes us feel good about the look and feel of the car. But like they used to say in my neighborhood when I was young, we need to get these two cars on the track and see what's what. I just had my first DE this past weekend and I was blown away with what my 2000 cab could do, much less the GT3 RS of my instructor. Wow!!!!!!!!!

Benjamin Choi

I was amazed at what an instructor did in his Z3 on stickier Toyos! So my point in all this is, n spec, z spec, q spec, whatever spec... 19x12 or 18x10... if you're going to start trying to prove why it's better and faster and justify via performance/speed claims... then SHOW ME your results. I can show you why I went with bigger, wider wheels because it makes a salient visual impact while at the same time cannot be hurting performance as ultimately all that stuff of going fast comes down to the driver and his/her abilities to work it.

I guess I just grew up with car guys who just kept their mouths shut and drove and did it well. They rarely put up excuses, blamed the car, the tires, whatever. They just went about their business and told me to not get all mixed up with the hairsplitting dudes who get their panties bunched up by making things more complex than it needs to be.

I have tracked in the past, but just haven't in the 911. I never bring it up cuz it's nothing that'll allow me to quit my day job. BALLLLN! I'll get it out there this summer.

jury_ca

Hehehe. The only thing I'm taking issue with is the notion that you can make mods such as widening the rear wheels and think that you have no measurable effect on handling. Porsche engineers have carefully selected the right tire size, construction and recommended tire pressures to ensure that the control you have over the vehicle is optimal and when you are at the limits of frt adhesion, you are also close to the limits of rear adhesion so you can induce *controlled* power oversteer when required. By increasing the rear contact patch, you have severely reduced the ability to balance the car at its limit with the throttle because of a reduction in the rear tire slip angle vs. the frt. In other words, while you'd be able to do a carefully controlled power slide in a stock C4S, I doubt you could do the same in your car.

And by thinking your car drives better and faster than a stock C4S, you are suggesting that you are better than the Porsche engineers who have spent thousands of engineering hrs making minor adjustments to variable handling factors to optimize the handling and ride. Yet, some yahoo in Washington state has somehow figured out a way to not only improve th4e ride, but improve handling as well by throwing on some pHaT wide wHeElz yO!

The above is EXACTLY why your car would not pass inspection and be road-legal in Germany. The Tuv is a respected organization that tests vehicles and its equipment based on a robust scientific methodology. This means that you should not mess with the 'standardized' formula unless you know what the hell you're doing. While you are correct that it does not matter since your car is U.S. registered, it's probably also the reason the Germans are allowed to drive their Porsches at 170+ MPH and you should keep your out-of-spec vehicle at 70

redridge

You have way to much faith in the "experts"...

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