mitch236

I was kidding!

TD in DC

This is serious business!

TD in DC

And that, my folks, is all that really matters.

I love my Targa and drive it every day . . . even in the snow.

arr0gant

I think what I said earlier is probably pretty right on, and in-line with what you said after me. Agree?

Palting

Geez, again with the mixing and matching with the wrong info. I was talking about the C4S, not C4. The C4 just has AWD, no better brakes, no wider track, no bigger wheels, no better suspension. The published time for the C4S at the ring is 8:15 and change. I'm at work and have the source at home and will post it when I get home. One reason I remember is that the 997 C2 beats the C4S, but, the C4S beats the 996 C2.

Weight DOES matter, I agree. I never said it didn't . It's how you put the weight . The added performance from the C4S add on's makes up for the added weight resulting in faster time. Not like the head heavy targa, that just adds weight in the wrong place

The 911, by inherent design, will oversteer. The Porsche AWD, by inherent design and by proper driver input, will make up for the understeer. It is NOT your regular SUV AWD. It's a question of balancing the need to turn and the need to pull the nose in. Slow in-fast out never made more sense than in the C4S. Slow in with the wheel turned, apply some gas to set the front drive going, front wheel drve of AWD pulls in the nose quicker toward the apex, straighten wheel slowly as you go WOT and all 4 wheels rocket you towards the track out and down the straight faster than possible exit speed with just the rear wheels pushing with the C2.

I never said they outlawed a GT3 AWD . What I said was that AWD would give an unfair advantage. The absence of a GT3 AWD has more to do with marketing than performance. It's bowing to the "race cars have RWD, therfore GT3 should have RWD" mentality of the buying public.

"Bling"? You know better than that, TD . Better brakes, better suspension, wider track, wider wheels is not "bling". BTW, better brakes ALWAYS make a difference, even if it's the same HP. It wil make for a shorter braking distance, allow for later braking and therefore faster top speed at the end of the straight, and makes that slow-in fast out tenet easier to apply.

Bottom line, we are talking seconds or even fractions of seconds difference in performance. Probably really never REALLY see the difference among regular drivers. They are all great cars. Even the Targa, heh-heh .

It's all about BRAGGING rights. The 996 C2 better performer than the 996 C4S? OVER MY DEAD BODY

TD in DC

Palting you can't really believe what you type

Palting

It's my religion, brother .

OK, gotta go to work now. See y'all later.

TD in DC

OK, I want to dig into this in a little more detail.

OK, here's a shocker for you . . . on a dry TRACK (not the streets), my preference would be C2, C4 and then C4S in that order. The extra weight of the C4S is not necessary, and I still don't understand why you think bigger wheels and heavier brakes are better. AFAIK, stock for stock suspensions of the C4S over the C4 is not substantially better.

I am glad you agree that weight matters. However, there is zero added performance from the C4S's weight since it is all unnecessary. Arguably, the Targa's extra weight makes more sense because you can actually perceive and enjoy it. I will explain my point about no added performance below.

I flat out disagree with you. On this point. Stock 996s . . . all of them . . understeer. In fact, they are all pigs in this respect. The C4Ss only magnify this characteristic when seriously pushed. You will need to go slow-in, fast-out. A C2 driver will have a better chance of going fast-in, fast out, which will be faster.

Now that's just crazy talk. Adding a sunroof to 997s was bowing to marketing. Making the GT3 RWD was just common sense. Have you been drinking again?

What are better brakes? Bigger, heaver brakes are not always better. No way. All that a brake has to do is be able to lock up the wheel, and do so repeatedly without fade. The great brake systems add excellent pedal feel and feedback to the equation. The brakes on the C2 are more than capable of locking up the wheels repeatedly without fade. The only reason why you would increase the size of brakes is so that you can get better resistance to fade. It is not a problem in the stock C2s, so the bigger brakes are totally unnecessary and add NOTHING. The bigger brakes on the C4S DO NOT result in shorter stopping distances than the C2. AS such, they are totally unnecessary bling.

I'll give you this point wholeheartedly.

Ok ok ok I would rather drink than fight anyways

caf

Yeah, just to clarify--I believe the C2 has been shown to be faster around the Ring than the C4, and would probably be faster around most dry tracks. The C4S is faster around the ring than the C2. This is almost undoubtedly due to its suspension changes, larger brakes and tires than a stock C2, and has nothing to do with its AWD. If you put equivalent brakes, tires and springs on a C2, it would best a C4S around the track.

And to expound on an earlier point, there is a difference in steering feel between the C2 and C4/C4S. If you've done much back to back driving in them, you know what I mean. The C2 feels quicker and more responsive through the steering than a C4. If on the other hand, you prefer the "riding on rails" feel, you can choose a C4 (or alternatively, a heavy SUV, NO--just kidding, don't go through the roof, C4 drivers!!).

arr0gant

C4S has same brakes from Turbo, they stop the car faster with less fade. This mean that into a turn, you can break later, fade less and increase time. This is where ALOT of time is made up by the C4S on the track.

arr0gant

I'd love to see quarter mile times on all 3 cars. I've lQQked and have not found. Anyone, anyone?

TD in DC

no, no, no.

Stopping distance and fading are only indirectly related.

Let's talk about the first stop [which means that fade is irrelevant].

Your stopping distance will be a function of your tires and the ability of your braking system to lock up the wheels.

If you have two cars with the same tires but different sized braking systems, the stopping distances will be IDENTICAL provided that the smaller braking system is capable of locking up the wheel. I mean, after you lock up the wheel, there is not much more you can do. So, provided that you "can" lock up the wheel, threshold braking at that point right before lockup should be identical regardless of brake size PROVIDED that the smaller system is capable of locking up the wheels.

At this point, the ONLY reason to have bigger brakes is to: (1) create better heat dissapation (which will reduce fade over repeated braking applications) and (2) create better modulation through additional pistons.

With respect to the C2, the brakes modulate VERY well, and fading is not a big problem. As such, larger brakes are entirely unnecessary and WILL NOT result in shorter stopping distances. You could install a braking system that is twice as big as the C4S system and you just will not stop any sooner (provided you have not also changed the brakes).

The single biggest error that many Porsche drivers do is to start installing bigger brake systems based upon the erroneous assumption that bigger is necessarily better. It ain't always so. There have been some great articles about this in Panorama, but I don't have any links to them. Sorry.

TD in DC

The quarter mile times of a C4S are slower than those of the C2 (due to weight), but quarter mile times are really unimportant since you would have to be a moron to buy a Porsche for the dragstrip

Eli K

Good point. Many slap on bigger brakes hoping to shorten the braking distance. A set of wider tire will do a much better job

TD in DC

as will improving ventilation and using better brake pads and fluid . . .

And Eli K knows what he is talking about. Hell, look at his avatar!!!!!