TD in DC

Yeah, you are talking auto journalists? Please. I would hardly consider "most" of them to be experts. Hell, most of them know less about cars than many on this board.

And the fact that I own a Targa for use on the street proves my point. The extra weight of the Targa or the C4S is fine for the street. Most people will never notice it. I prefer the Targa because I like the roof. Now, you would NEVER hear me say that the Targa is preferable to a coupe for the track. That would be ridiculous, just as I believe it is ridiculous for people to claim that a C4 or C4S is preferable than a C2 for the track. It just isn't true. Now, can you use a Targa on the track? Absolutely. In fact, it is a blast. Would most of us notice the extra weight, or even its placement? No, most would not. Nonetheless, it is not BETTER than a coupe, just like a C4 or C4S is not better than a C2 for the track.

I have nothing against C4s or C4Ss for street use or dual street/track usage. Nothing at all. I would consider a C4S myself (well, probably not, but not because it would be inadequate in any way).

People just need to be reasonable in their claims. The reason Porsche didn't make the GT3 a C4 was not because they were afraid of making the car too capable

P.S. My race cars are 2wd coupes

Palting

Go, Adrian, Go! Heh-heh . It's been a while since I joined in this C2 vs C4S discussion. There's been tons of them, and frankly, I was getting tired of them. Learned a couple of things on this one, though. Thanks, Adrian.

Let me reiterate some old points, and throw in some new ones.

1. Performance in the DRY. The 996 C4S laps Nurburgring faster than the 996 C2.
2. Understeer. The AWD system is not the same AWD system as an SUV. Power is distributed R-F as needed. I find that at the limit, driven properly, the front wheel drive system in the 4S AWD help TURN IN the front and rotate the car, allowing for earlier gas and full throttle with faster exit and straight speed. Granted, I'm not a race car driver, but so is almost everone who will buy these cars.
3. Racing. C'mon, you said it yourself, TD. We are talking about street cars and their relative performace. Race cars are set up differently. Anyway, there have been AWD race cars in recent history, and there have been rules banning AWD in some races due to the unfair advantage of AWD.
4. Weight. All that extra weight is dedicated to performance. The AWD system, the wider track, the larger wheels and tires, even the bigger brakes. All add weight. All add performance. What is important is the net result. I refer you to point number 1 for the net result.
5. Looks. The C4S look sets it apart from any other 996, even from the turbo. It's unique, and, IMHO, the best looking 996. But then, I'm biased .
6. Cost. There are several large ticket items that are standard on the C4S, optional on the C2. Net result is that the C4S costs less than a C2 optioned out to the same extent. I'm talking about when ordered new, though.

OK, I think I'm done again.

Adrian

Firstly I should point out that one of those Journalists was myself and among the others were two former F1 drivers and another who won Le Mans in a Porsche. The rest of them had pretty good Journalistic credentials as well. Thanks for the insults on behalf of myself and my colleagues.

The original poster asked about street use. The ONLY person in this thread who has mentioned the racetrack was in post #7 and you starting in post #12 and spreading it on.
You asked me a question and I answered it, but nowhere in my posts along in this thread have I suggested the C4 is a better track car than a Carrera so apart from Palting who provided some video evidence of his claim and figures to support his argument at the Ring I do not believe anyone been unreasonable in this thread except somebody starting to hurl insults.

Hey Palting I am also sick sorry and fed up with this C2 versus C4 nonsense. This has been going on since Al Gore invented the Internet and each time new models come out with a C4 variant their owners get hit again by the C2 owners.

Ciao,
Adrian.

TD in DC

One lap time means nothing . . . abslolutely nothing. I bet I can find different times. If the C4 is so great, then why is a GT3, which is Porsche's idea of the pinnacle of a street/track car, only a C2 rather than a C4. C'mon smart guy, answer that! (BTW, for those who don't know, Palting and I engage in this debate occassionally and it is all in good fun)
C'mon Palting The 996 platform tends towards understeer in general. When you ask the same set of tires to both steer and carry power, it increases the tendency towards understeer. The fast guys on the track who are driving TTs or C4Ss are all about managing understeer, and they frequently complalin about the awds pushing like pigs when you are really on it. Also, the very best 996 platform car for Turn-in is the GT3, and it is not a C4 car. AWD does not help with turn in. It may turn in perfectly adequately well, but it is not BECAUSE the car has AWD that it turns in well.
With resepct to street cars, none of this debate matters. I have been hearing people throwing around BS that the AWD system is superior than the C2 on the track. That is just untrue. No ban prevented Porsche from putting AWD on the GT3. They didn't do it. Why? Because RWD is superior for on track usage.
PURE BUNK. As an engineer, I will tell you that weight matters, and that you should not make components bigger or heavier than absolutely necessary for the application. The C2 brakes are perfectly adequate for their application, which means that the Turbo brakes for the SAME EXACT ENGINE is overkill and, therefore, unnecessarily heavy. It is, quite frankly, pure bling. Nothing wrong with that, but just don't claim it is better. Also, larger rims and tires that weigh more are BAD unless they are necessary to correct a lack of traction. On my race car, you can actually go slower if you but on rims and wheels that are too big. Finally, you are placing way to much importance to that silly time you found. I am sure I could find contrary results.
I never said the contrary, but I am partial to the Targa.
Assuming that you want all that bling.

TD in DC

Calm down Adrian. I am a long-time member of this forum and several people around here have met me in person. I know that you are a journalist. I was giving you a hard time. I was not being serious. You are taking all of this too seriously. In retrospect, I should have used a winky smilie but I just forgot.

You are absolutely right about when and why I weighed in. On the street, I don't care, and I have posted numerous times that the C4s and C4Ss are great, and that many people couldn't notice the difference. No argument there.

I weighed in when the euphoric praise of the C4s and C4Ss reached the point where it started to sound like "it is even better on the track." I disagree. I have made it clear throughout this mini debate that I am ONLY talking about the track. Why can't I weigh in to keep the debate realistic? Is that so wrong?

I used to live in Konstanz am Bodensee. I visit occassionally still. Maybe the next time I go we can meet for a drink, which will be on me since my sense of humor apparently insulted you

In the end, though, I have hardly been "hurling insults" Trust me, things would be completely different if that had been my intent. I think that even Palting knows that I am being partly serious and partly joking.

TD in DC

OK Palting. Read it and weep. Here are ring laptimes for the ring

This is a list of the fastest production cars in Norschleife Nürburgring.

6:55 - Radical SR8
7:32 - Porsche Carrera GT (7:32.44)
7:44 - Pagani Zonda S
7:46 - Porsche 996 GT2
7:47 - Porsche Gt3 RS (sport tyres)
7:50 - BMW M3 CSL (sport tyres)
7:52 - Porsche GT3 (381hp)
7:52 - Lamborghini Gallardo
7:52 - Lamborghini Murcielago
7:52 - Mercedes SLR mclaren
7:56 - Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 - Ferrari 360 stradale (sport tyres)
7:57 - Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 HP, racing suspension)
8:07 - Ferrari 550
8:09 - Lamborghini Diablo SV
8:09 - Ferrari 360 Modena
8:10 - Chrysler Viper GTS
8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 HP version)
8:15 - BMW Z8 400 HP
8:17 - Porsche 996 C2
8:18 - Ferrari F355
8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 HP
8:25 - Audi RS4 375 HP
8:28 - Porsche 993 C2
8:28 - BMW M5 400 HP
8:32 - Porsche Boxster S
8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe 321 HP
8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG
8:38 - Honda NSX
8:39 - Honda S2000
8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette
8:42 - Audi S4 265 HP
8:42 - Lotus Exige
8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe
8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times"

It is important to note the difference in time between the GT2 and the TT. The GT2, which is the TT in RWD form is significantly faster . . . . hmmmm I don't even see a C4S time.

Adrian

I go on what I read and that is all. I do not know your intent and I judge a lot by the use the Smilies to see if a person is possibly joking.

You are more than welcome to drop by and have a beer. I am also more than willing to get at least of one of those Journalists that you have such a low opinion of around to have a chat. He lives not far from me.
This particular person did a show a couple of years ago testing the various stability control systems installed on many cars including Porsche, BMW, Mercedes etc and how they worked in the snow andon ice. I hate to tell which car took the corners fastest and stayed on the road longest, but it was the narrowbody 996 Carrera 4 closely followed by the widebody Carrera 4S.
If you want the rest of the story you may have to tune into your History channel in a few years time when these European shows are sometimes aired.
For the record my 996 gets stored in winter and its place taken by my little Alfa Romeo 145. The salt used here in winter literally destroyed my last Carrera 4 from the inside out so my current one will not be subjected to this.
You will never see Carreras on the roads around here in winter and the Porsche that competes in the French Andros Ice Racing series is AWD.
Ciao,
Adrian.

TD in DC

I have made very clear in all of my comments that I was not talking about anything other than dry pavement "ON THE TRACK" That's it. If you are on dry pavement "ON THE TRACK," the 996 C2 is superior to the 996 C4 or the 996 C4S. That's it.

In fact, I said numerous times that for rally or in inclement weather, all bets are off . . .

Adrian

I agree and have agreed with this since Noah was knee high to a grasshopper.
Mind you I would have liked the GT-3 AWD project to have gone further than what it did, but it was cancelled due to lack of a profitable customer base much to a certain Porsche employee's displeasure.
Remember I only entered this thread when it was suggested that somehow the C4 dilutes the Porsche Experience whatever that really is. Sounds like a marketing department sound byte to me, but anyway.
Ciao,
Adrian.

mitch236

That's because you removed it from the list to prove your point!!

TD in DC

No, I didn't. I cut and pasted directly from the list I found. My real point is that ring lap times are all over the map, and you can ususally find times to prove your point if you search long enough.

Here is one from track challenge:

911 Carrera (996) 911 Carrera 4 (996)

Manufacturer Porsche Porsche
Testing Date 1/1998 2/2001
Engine 3387 cccm, 6 Zyl , 24 V 3387 cccm, 6 Zyl , 24 V
Power 300 PS (221 KW) @ 6800/min 300 PS (221 KW) @ 6800/min
Torque 350 Nm @ 4600/min 350 Nm @ 4600/min
Transmission 0 (6) 0 (6)
Weight 1399 Kg 1466 Kg
Weight / BhP 4,7 Kg / PS 4,9 Kg/ PS
0 - 100 Km/h 4,9 s 5,4 s
0 - 200 Km/h 17,9 s 19,9 s
0 - 200-0 Km/h 22,9 s 25,5 s
Top Speed
280 Km/h 280 Km/h
80 - 120 Km/h 4.Gear 5,5 s 5,9 s
100 - 0 Km/h hot 36,8 m , 10,5 m/s 40,6 m , 9,5 m/s
Transverse Acceleration 1,2 g 1,25 g
Slalom Course 36 / 110m 121 / 129 Km/h 129 / 136 Km/h
Round Time Nuerburgring 8.17 min 8.23 min
Round Time Hockenheim 1.15,9 min 1.16,6 min

Here is another from track-challenge:

GT2 (996) 911 Turbo (996)

Manufacturer Porsche Porsche
Testing Date 6/2001 6/2000
Engine 3600 cccm, 6 Zyl , 24 V 3600 cccm, 6 Zyl , 24 V
Power 462 PS (340 KW) @ 5700/min 420 PS (309 KW) @ 6000/min
Torque 620 Nm @ 3500/min 560 Nm @ 2700/min
Transmission 0 (6) 0 (6)
Weight 1450 Kg 1569 Kg
Weight / BhP 3,13 Kg / PS 3,7 Kg/ PS
0 - 100 Km/h 4 s 4,2 s
0 - 200 Km/h 12,4 s 14,6 s
0 - 200-0 Km/h 17,4 s 19,8 s
Top Speed
320 Km/h 305 Km/h
80 - 120 Km/h 4.Gear 3,3 s 3,5 s
100 - 0 Km/h hot 36,1 m , 10,7 m/s 36,1 m , 10,7 m/s
Transverse Acceleration 1,35 g 1,3 g
Slalom Course 36 / 110m 128 / 154 Km/h 128 / 139 Km/h
Round Time Nuerburgring 7.46 min 7.56 min
Round Time Hockenheim 1.12,6 min 1.14,6 min

TD in DC

OK, so sounds like we don't even disagree at all. TAKE THAT PALTING. THE ESTEEMED JOURNALISTS ALL AGREE WITH ME . . . EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!

BTW, I actually weighed in and supported you in your response to the "diluting" the Porsche experience. I believed your tire explanation. Also, an AWD GT3 would make an outstanding rally car.

Adrian

Here's a slightly longer list, but clearly driver skill and track condition has the edge over pure HP with the GT-3RS faster than the factory production Turbocharged Porsches.
Ciao,
Adrian.

6:59 --- Ferrari 312T, Niki Lauda, German GP, training (1975)
7:06 --- Ferrari 312T, Clay Regazzoni, German GP, race (1975)
*1.2m longer circuit than standard Nordschleife

6:11 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, training (1983)
6:26 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, race (1983)
6:41 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Derek Bell
7:50 --- BMW X5 Le Mans V12, Hans Stuck (2001)
*0.232 km longer than current, standard Nordschleife


7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:18.1-- Donkervoort D8 RS (12/2004)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003)
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time by Horst Von Saurma
7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001)
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003)
7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (07/2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (12/2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:56 --- Honda NSX-R - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette CE Z06
7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:06 --- Subaru Impreza Sti spec C - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:11 --- Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004)
8:13 --- BMW M5 (E60) (12/2004)
8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
8:15*-- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
8:16 --- AC Schnitzer Z4 V8 Topster (01/2005)
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003)
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 --- Callaway C12
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002)
8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
8:35 --- BMW 130i
8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001)
8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

TD in DC

Thanks Adrian!

RAC

I love my C4. And I drive it everyday.