You made some tasty lemonade. I hear you, doubt I would ever consider tracking a M96 or even Mezger powered car with 200k miles unless I was prepared to rebuild both.

But no question, we can't change the fact that metal, plastic and rubber parts wear and then break. All we can do is mitigate the speed in which the parts may break. All engines will eventually need a rebuild.

 

I have a Raby 4.0 Stage II. I've run very long sessions, and back to back 40 minute sessions. At a recent Chin event, I ran the 30 minute orientation session, followed up by the 40 minute Red group, and followed it up with 40 minute Blue group session. On that Saturday, I drove the car for every possible track minute allowed (Orientation, all Red & Blue Sessions, and ended up with the 60 minute Happy Hour session) for almost 6 hours of track time. On Sunday, I ran every session again except the 60 minute Happy Hour so I could start the journey home. That weekend was around 11 hours of track time. A few weeks later I ran it hard for a PCA club race weekend and it answered the bell for each session. I do have an oil cooler and change the oil (XP9) between every track event. The Raby engine has been run about 5 track years (approximately 8 to 10 track events a year) and a bit more in a couple of those years. The car is now back at Raby's magical work shop for refresh/preventative work. The Raby engine has held up very well and I appreciate Raby and his team's work. Hopefully- it will hold up for another 5 years.

 

But don't forget, they are plug and play!

 

You really think so..?

 

Yes, the Raby 4.0 set up for the track fixes many/all of the inherent m96 engine weak points, it is the crown jewel of the M96 builds no doubt...
Curious, what was the total cost from start to finished installed engine...?

 

Alot of folks loose sight that you don't need to beat the heck out of the engine on the track to get speed from it. It's a momentum car. You just have to have the right set-up and inputs to balance it and keep the speed up. Certainly helps with engine life. Smoother is faster.

 

^Yeppers- The light weight combined with strong brakes/grippy tires/suspension allow late braking- and keeping the minimum speed as high as possible along with a stable rear allows speed to be squeezed out of the platform. Plenty of more powerful machines blow by me- but I have a lot of fun getting what I can out of it for what it is- rowing the gears and playing footsies with the pedals.

Regarding total cost- I don't recall the exact amount but was in the 25-30K range. I am very happy with the difference in this and what a standard motor rebuild would have cost at that time. As everyone has stated many times- Raby builds a relationship with his clients. I continue to have regular conversations with Jud and him over these many years. It was a very worth while cost for me to enjoy track adventures.

 

Absolutely. It lasted over 200k street miles, but like i said (and u cut off in the quote) its not great for the track.

 

I tracked my car once with all seasons, on the long left hand sweeper after a few laps the oil pressure would drop. Stopped tracking it as soon as I saw that. The engine isn't made for it.

 

Agreed. Not in stock form it isnt. Nor is any M9X powered 986,987,996,997. But after you put in a better imsb, better aos, better sump you sure can. Problem is most folks just don't want to spend the money to properly set the car up for the track. Then they wonder why the engine blows.

Same can be said for the LS, K24, etc. Gotta make sure its set up properly. Big difference between track driving and grocery getting as it pertains to oil pressure and stability requirements.

 

the key difference is the cost to performance ratio. $10k invested into an ls2 for example gives you a freshly rebuilt motor with a better cam and valve springs ($5k), a dry sump ($4k), and a few other small upgrades. This motor would make 400rwhp all day long. I know nothing about the k24, but I imagine the same would be true, perhaps minus the hp number.

To get a truly reliable track m96 (doing the work yourself), you're talking $5k for pistons/bores, ims solution at $1800, rods for $1500, head work ($1500 to $3k), bunch of replacement parts, all the gaskets, bolts etc that add up. I'd say even if you're not replacing absolutely everything, you're looking at about $15k. Then you add the UIDs at $3k and the uaos for another $300 and you're closing in on $20k real fast. And you end up with a motor that might put down 330rwhp on a good day. Another big one....just about any idiot can rebuild an lsx...if you need someone to build your M96....add a good $10k to $15k to the prices above.

Yes, porsche has never been about performance for the money, but its double the money for like 100bhp less

 

No question, guys that can do the work themselves and like to tinker have a huge advantage to get what they want regardless of the engine route taken. Always comes down to end-game goals, preferences, money and time. With enough money and time, we can get what we want.

 

Owning many Boxsters and 911 m96, I've thought this thru, like many here...

The imsb solution along with other common sense parts (rms, clutch, throw out bearing, pilot shaft bearing, oil cooler, water pump, t-stat, uaos, belts, hoses, fittings, cables, etc) once the tranny is out, adds up to at least $5000+ if you do it all your self on your back. unless you're fortunate enough to have a stand under lift that most don't. $10,000 ??? if a shop does it all. (better be a good Porsche shop so they can get it all done correctly, as its not a Toyota, and needs specialized tools, knowledge, AND Porsche experti$e.

Then start adding in expensive new sumps/pumps. Even then, how do you not wonder about the lousy defective lokisil 2 flaking off and bore scoring, or 5 sets of cam chains, pads, tensioners, actuators... Easy $15,000-20, including problematic cylinder scoring, with needed LN fix.

My point, its easy to spend as much as the initial purchase price of the car on 'bulletproofing' the m96. Then start adding in the pretty stuff $$$...
Could have just bought a Mezger Porsche 996 turbo or 996 gt for what the m96 + 'bulletproofing' with a lot less power will end up costing... A 15k TT on sale now for $52,000 on Bat.

imo these 5 chain motors were a bad design from the get go, but to give Porsche benefit of the doubt it was their first attempt at a water cooled flat 6.... Whats bothersome is when Porsche realized how feeble/problematic the m96 was,, so then voided warranty if you installed great sticky tires in a Car brand that was always known for on a rail handling cars with the best tires...

Don't get me wrong, I luv my 2 996 I have now, but know their pitfalls and can live with it. But both of them are mine because of sentimental value...

jmho

 

I really liked the M96 in my 911. So much that for some time I also had a 986S. Then I got a 718 4 turbo and did not take a liking to that engine. Great power but I found the engine note lacking. I also did not like the throttle response. I can't really say the car has lag and it makes a ton of torque, but the throttle response (to me) was never on par with a boxer 6.

I tend to agree with the cost analysis on making the M96 reliable for the track. I thought about selling the car and getting a 996TT, but I worry I will not like the throttle response.

So, to me, the best option appears an LS3, which is the route I am taking. I purchased a crate LS3. I like the chassis too much to let it go. The question is - will I like it with the V8? Time will tell. If I do like it, I will look for a dry sump solution.

If there are folks here with direct personal experience with an LS engine in a 996 - which dry sump did you use, and would you go with the same brand/model? I am new to LS engines and there's just so many options (which is great!) for dry sumps for this engine. Also - I do want to keep my AC.

 

Yep. Unless the guy is a newbee and just doesnt know what he doesnt know, there isnt a guy at the track that isn't bitching about weak links and issues in all their cars. That includes mezgers.

We all think the grass is greener on the other side of the street, then we walk over and see it isnt. But that's human nature. Without it, we wouldn't have any progress.

But in spite of buying my 996.2 back in 2002, and putting much more than my original I urchase price into it with parts and service, I would do it all over again and again. Just too good of a car on the street and track to get caught up in the bitching and moaning.

What I am happy about is the next wave of innovation that has been proliferating in the M96 world that is bringing new solutions to us. I am cheering on the engine swappers as well as the guys like Skip, Charles and Jake who are bringing out new solutions and more flexible solutions.

Sure it all costs money, but as a 57 year old, there isn't much else I would rather spend my money on. Got too much stuff that sits in the house that I never use anyway. But the 996 is a different story.