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I got the UOA back today. The viscosity and oxidation were low which is probably to be expected after using it on the track 3 times (lesson learned). Other than that, nothing looks alarming to me. One note, the total wear metals value of the previous sample is wrong (should be 6.8).
Anything I should be concerned about? I know Jake says that this is mostly for trending and only tiny pieces of metal can be found in the UOA.
Since previous oil filters were clean and the sump/swirl pots were clean I'm wondering if this could have been a one time event on the track. Can that happen? I did spin out and roll backwards for a bit without putting the clutch in. I heard that can be bad for the engine.
So the question is, what next? Rather than have someone tear the engine apart I'm inclined to put oil back in it, drive it for another 50 miles or so and check the filter again to see if this is continuing. I don't want to risk more serious engine damage but I also don't want to spend thousands on taking the engine out and possibly splitting the case until I know this is ongoing.
So, to sum up: 1999 C2, 45K total miles on original engine. Had it for a year. Filter check on PPI was good and my last two filter checks were good too. Small ferrous metal flakes were found in the oil filter this last change after 3,500 miles and 3 DE track events. PO had IMSB replaced with LN dual row ~3 years & 10K miles ago. I saw the original bearing and it looked & felt good. It didn't wobble but did come to a stop quickly rather than taking several seconds to spin down. Not sure if that is normal or not.
Have you had the oil sump plate off recently, or used any RTV sealant anywhere on the engine in the last 2 oil services?
Have you had the oil sump plate off recently, or used any RTV sealant anywhere on the engine in the last 2 oil services?
No. The sump plate is off now but that's the first time. I assume you're referring to the high silicon value in the first sample? Over the past year I've changed the plugs/coils/tubes, water pump, thermostat and coolant tank. But nothing that required sealant. I also had an indy do the brake fluid and fuel filter.
In that case I see iron elevated, as well as silicon together. Iron is the rings, and ferro coating on the piston skirts; silicon is the bores. Viscosity is low, oxidation is high.
Aluminum isn't high yet, so this has likely not progressed super far as of yet.
Thanks Jake. Would that explain the metal in the oil filter as well? Is there a possibility that the metal was caused by something at the track (spin out or oil starvation) or is that something that doesn't really happen?
I'm interested though.. The LN dual row was installed when the engine qualified / no debris, good condition, right? But Jake also says you also can't ever, under any circumstance, install an LN IMSB in a car with debris-laden oil. He's said this on numerous occasions.
So... since metallic debris has now been found in the oil and filter, I guess that would mean the LN IMSB is at great risk and the LN bearing will fail sooner than later unless the engine comes apart and is ultrasonically cleaned? So the LN bearing is now the most at-risk part in the engine?
Last edited by User 63031; 06-06-2021 at 07:48 AM.
The bearing was installed under a previous owner. He did not tell me which shop installed it. As far as I know there is only one LN approved shop in southern California and they are in LA so I doubt it was an LN approved shop.
I don't know how the engine was qualified. It was checked for camshaft deviation at the PPI and I've checked several times since and it was solid at 0% The car has had a PPI and two oil changes since I've had it and no metal until this one.
I have his receipt for the new bearing and he showed me the original one. It seemed fine. It spun and there was no wobble. Judging by the date of purchase of the new bearing and CarFax reports I'd say it's been 10-15K miles & 4 years since it was installed.
From all this I'd say that the old bearing was fine and there was no issue when the new LN was put in. Of course I wasn't there so I can't guarantee that.
I've heard similar things said about having a clean engine with no bearing failure before putting a new one in or LN won't guarantee the new one. I think the most at risk part is whatever is causing the metal. That could be the crankshaft, cams or IMSB. I'm hoping my indy can take a look at it this week and we can start the elimination process.
Normally I'd agree, but Jake has confirmed the LN Retrofit does not survive in debris laden oil. It is a bearing without seal, it is lubricated by sump oil directly. Which means it will have seen the metallic debris and is likely already damaged by it. I think it would be the first to go, tbh.
Even if your engine previously passed qualification and was pristine, having any part in your engine shed metal means your Retrofit is no longer safe to use. Jake will not warranty it anymore either. If you want to keep using an LN product, you're looking at a partial rebuild since this engine no longer passes qualification.
Or you source a sealed bearing kit so you don't have to worry about it and can focus on the thing that is shedding metal. Like jake said, the issue is not far progressed yet, likely just due to your track day. I'd monitor it after a few oil changes and see if the shedding stops. If not, you'll have more work to do. It's just a shame that the Retrofit is so vulnerable that if anything else in the car has a problem, you're also looking at an expensive IMSB repair on top.
Last edited by User 63031; 06-06-2021 at 01:44 PM.
Normally I'd agree, but Jake has confirmed the LN Retrofit does not survive in debris laden oil. It is a bearing without seal, it is lubricated by sump oil directly. Which means it will have seen the metallic debris and is likely already damaged by it. I think it would be the first to go, tbh.
Even if your engine previously passed qualification and was pristine, having any part in your engine shed metal means your Retrofit is no longer safe to use. Jake will not warranty it anymore either. If you want to keep using an LN product, you're looking at a partial rebuild since this engine no longer passes qualification.
Or you source a sealed bearing kit so you don't have to worry about it and can focus on the thing that is shedding metal. Like jake said, the issue is not far progressed yet, likely just due to your track day. I'd monitor it after a few oil changes and see if the shedding stops. If not, you'll have more work to do. It's just a shame that the Retrofit is so vulnerable that if anything else in the car has a problem, you're also looking at an expensive IMSB repair on top.
Tell me where I am wrong? Yes, the intent is crystal clear. Yes, I have called the Retrofit a glass bearing before. We're looking at a real use case scenario here - tell me where I am wrong about your bearing not surviving debris laden oil?
Tell me where I am wrong? Yes, the intent is crystal clear. Yes, I have called the Retrofit a glass bearing before. We're looking at a real use case scenario here - tell me where I am wrong about your bearing not surviving debris laden oil?
Where you are wrong lies in the perception of the pre- qualification procedure.
From day one the pre- qualification procedure was done to determine if the engine was healthy enough to have the money spent for IMS Retrofit. The true intent of this is to ensure that the owner of the vehicle will receive an adequate return on their investment in IMS Retrofit. This applies to the engine as a whole.
An example is a 5 chain engine that has camshaft deviations greater than 6 degrees, and only has oil laden with material from chain guides, which is not metal, and poses zero threat to the IMSB or any other component from debris laden oil. This is due to the material that is shed by these components in the stages before the chain rails fail completely. These deviations are a sign that the engine has underlying issues and will not have a positive return on investment for the owner, without further invasive work being carried out.
In this case, the engine fails pre- qualification, and the IMS Retrofit procedure is not carried out. In this case the owner saves the money to address the more immediate concern, and condition that was noted during the invasive inspection portion of the pre- qualification. This is exactly like a “pre-op” for a human before going under anesthesia for one procedure to be performed. The idea is to keep the patient from dying on the table. In this case it is for the engine to live the longest life possible, providing a better return on investment.
If someone wants an IMS product that does not see direct negative effects from debris laden oil, they choose the IMS Solution, which fed solely with just filtered oil, directly from the SPOFA.
That said, debris laden oil has a negative impact, and will shorten the life of every internal engine component that lives from boundary layer oil protection. It may fit your narrative to specifically target the IMS Bearing, but everything else sees the same collateral damages equally.
Alright, but regardless of the intent of the pre-qual (IMO to set stringent warranty conditions), you agree my other notions are accurate.
That the IMS Retrofit will not survive metallic debris in the sump oil.
That the topicstarter in this topic is now at risk for failure of the LN Retrofit bearing, even if the engine was pristine before the Retrofit went in.
That even if topicstarter addresses or stops current wear, the LN Retrofit is now likely to fail since it has been used in metallic-debris laden oil.
I will tell you where you are wrong;
That said, debris laden oil has a negative impact, and will shorten the life of every internal engine component that lives from boundary layer oil protection. It may fit your narrative to specifically target the IMS Bearing, but everything else sees the same collateral damages equally.
Categorically false, and you know it. All critical engine parts are lubricated by filtered oil, which the only exception being the LN Retrofit which is lubricated by sump oil, unfiltered, laden with these tiny metallic particles. The LN Retrofit is now contaminated. Unless his filter or bypass-valve is broken, all critical wear components see filtered oil. There is zero base to your claim that all other components are equally affected. My narrative is indeed heavily based in the fact that the LN retrofit sits in dirty sump-oil without any seal.
You may not want to admit that your product has any weaknesses, I know it's bad press, but this is a glaringly obvious one. It is our duty but also yours to warn people like him that his IMSB is now at risk and could destroy his entire engine. Even if his metallic shedding was a one-off event from track-use with bad oil and does not significantly progress further after an oil change, he will now have to address his IMSB and we should make him aware of that before the engine grenades.
Last edited by User 63031; 06-06-2021 at 03:22 PM.
Alright, but regardless of the intent of the pre-qual (IMO to set stringent warranty conditions), you agree my other notions are accurate.
That the IMS Retrofit will not survive metallic debris in the sump oil.
That the topicstarter in this topic is now at risk for failure of the LN Retrofit bearing, even if the engine was pristine before the Retrofit went in.
That even if topicstarter addresses or stops current wear, the LN Retrofit is now likely to fail since it has been used in metallic-debris laden oil.
I will tell you where you are wrong;
Categorically false, and you know it. All critical engine parts are lubricated by filtered oil, which the only exception being the LN Retrofit which is lubricated by sump oil, unfiltered, laden with these tiny metallic particles. The LN Retrofit is now contaminated. Unless his filter or bypass-valve is broken, all critical wear components see filtered oil. There is zero base to your claim that all other components are equally affected. My narrative is indeed heavily based in the fact that the LN retrofit sits in dirty sump-oil without any seal.
No, the entire engine will see a global impact of debris laden oil. As an example, cylinders and pistons only see splash oil, and are subject to boundary layer oil protection only. The bores will be the very first thing that sees damage from debris laden oil.
”all critical wear components” do not see filtered oil. This is one reason that we see bore scoring occur as collateral damage, as well as a primary failure.
Further, the wear debris is being generated somewhere, and every ounce of previously filtered oil beyond this point in a given system will see collateral damage from the wear debris generation.
Case in point:
I see engines die from main bearing wear all the time. As the #1 main bearing wears, it is being fed with clean, filtered oil. The wear creates debris laden oil at this main bearing, that is then fed with oil pressure (amplified by centrifugal force) to the #6 connecting rod bearing. This debris laden oil will then instantly contaminate the oil supply for this bearing, generating wear, ultimately resulting in a failure of the #6 connecting rod bearing. In that case, the rod bearing was further downstream from the source of the first wear debris, and the fact that the oil was previously “filtered” makes no difference at all. The #6 rod bearing derives it’s lubrication from the #1 main bearing.
In this case most people would say that the engine died from a rod bearing failure, when the engine really had a primary failure of the main bearing, and a secondary failure of the rod bearing. This is just one case that is easy to use to help convey the point.
Perhaps your limited experience with these engines (and clearly engines in general) is driving your inability to comprehend this. You are hearing what you want, in order to form your reply, to prove a point that you don’t even understand yourself.
In short, if the engine has ferromagnetic debris laden oil, the owner has a bigger problem than the IMS Bearing to worry about. All components that see boundary layer oil protection have already been exposed to less- than-favorable- conditions.
Last edited by Flat6 Innovations; 06-06-2021 at 03:33 PM.
Perhaps your limited experience with these engines (and clearly engines in general) is driving your inability to comprehend this. You are hearing what you want, in order to form your reply, to prove a point that you don’t even understand yourself.
I was waiting for the first ad-hominem, guess I didn't have to wait long. Unnecessary, but not entirely unexpected.
As an example, cylinders and pistons only see splash oil, and are subject to boundary layer oil protection only. The bores will be the very first thing that sees damage from debris laden oil.
”all critical wear components” do not see filtered oil. This is one reason that we see bore scoring occur as collateral damage, as well as a primary failure.
So you mean to say that you believe the cylinder walls and pistons are lubricated by splash from the sump? Am I understanding your comment correctly? Just verifying before I say anything about that.
I am contesting your initial notion that >all< other critical wear components see >equal< wear from metallic debris in the sump. You already toned it down to "globally it will have an impact" and "less than favorable conditions", hat off to you my friend. You say it yourself; when a piece of debris lodges free from a wear part, it will flow with the oil to the sump and in that journey will have one (1) chance to do damage along the way until it reaches the sump. Debris-laden oil can only come there directly from upstream damage, not from fresh oil out of the oil filter. Once the debris reaches the sump - a very chaotic body of fluid - that same piece of debris may pass the IMSB that literally sits below sump oil-level upwards of 10's, 100's, maybe even 1000's of times before it is being picked up by the oil pump and finally ending up lodged in the filter. That is 10 to 1000x more exposure to the same debris than those parts that you claim 'wear equally'.
The IMSB will see more wear from any piece of metallic debris than any other critical-wear part unless your oil filter is literally broken, and once a nucleation site of damage is created on an un-sealed ball-bearing, there is no more stopping it.
So you mean to say that you believe the cylinder walls and pistons are lubricated by splash from the sump? Am I understanding your comment correctly? Just verifying before I say anything about that.
“Piston squirters” are only partially responsible for cylinder and piston lubrication.
This is made very clear when we eliminate them from the engine entirely.
Since user 63031 is clearly here to argue, I have nothing more to say in regard to addressing his points. I will continue to assist the OP and add information to the thread that can be beneficial to him.
06-02-2021, 04:18 PM
