plpete84

Hey everyone - long time lurker and gear head here that's looking to possibly get himself into his 1st Porsche. I've read through much of the site and had a few things to run by some of the more experienced folks on here.


Some background first... I've been working on cars since before I could drive them and although I'm not a mechanic I've done an engine swap on a CB7 Accord, timing belt on an Audi A4, brake jobs and other stuff in between. I've also been driving manual all my life. About a year ago I needed to sell my A4 and get something newer and more reliable that will have a decent resale value - ended up in a 2014 Lexus GS350 RWD with the F-Sport package and Mark Levinson Audio. The car has great options and is fantastic but with Covid here I don't drive too much any more and damn it, I miss having a manual. In the past I've driven a manual 997 base convertible, a 991 CS with PDK and recently I've been fortunate to have an opportunity to babysit a 2003 996 C4S, also a manual and was told to enjoy the car as it needs to be driven. I've had a chance to put on about 1500 miles on it and really got to know the car....well and now I kind of really want one hah. Some thoughts as I start to search...


- The IMS seems to be the thing everyone talks about. My understanding is that it's a wise preventative measure but it's not something that every 996 deals with. Higher mileage seem to be less prone to failure. I guess the benefit of the 996 is that the IMS is more easily serviceable than the 997.1 where it's actually in the motor?.

- I like to drive and expect the car to have some mileage. What's a good number to shoot for? How are these cars at 70k, 90k and 110k miles? I'm sure this will play into the cost. Outside of IMS and regular maintenance, are there any big items to worry about?

- Bore scoring - how serious of an issue is this? I've seen it come up here and there but again, could be blown out of proportion.

- Having mechanical experience, I'd do my best to work on the car myself. Outside of stuff like clutch and IMS, are there any jobs that you'd suggest I trust a mechanic with?

- Seems like getting a PPI is a no brainer here. How much can I expect to pay for this on a 911 at a reputable shop?

- Speaking of cost, I'm thinking of allocating around $25k or so for this with some wiggle room potentially. Is this reasonable? I'm open to all models be it C2 or C4, S or base but it must be a manual and not a gray interior.

- I'm specifically looking for a 996.2 with updated headlights. The look has really grown on me. Having said that, I've never driven a Cayman and feel like I should consider that. I know it's quite a different driving experience bc of mid-engine set up. If I did I'd be looking at an S variant to get closer to 300hp. Any thoughts there?


Many thanks in advance for your comments on this stuff!


Peter

Dr_Strangelove

Hi Peter, welcome to the hunt and the community in general. I'm going to give you kind of a general answer about buying a 996 but first I just want to say that the IMS / IMSB, and now Bore Scoring are big topics that can't really be covered in a few sentences. We have members that range from no cares in the world to probably too many cares and so if you are the person who is nervous of the risk I recommend you check out the YouTube series on both topics. "PCA Spotlight: Intermediate shaft and IMS bearing explained" and "Focus on Bore Scoring" by Rennvision.

So $25,000 for a car sounds totally reasonable and I think you'll get a really nice Mk2 for that price. The question outside of that is - how much work will you be doing on this car? Even the Mk2's are getting old enough to vote... Soon enough they'll be smoking and drinking. You'll be doing fixes to aging parts that dry out and crack, fail over time due to wear and tear, it's inevitable. So addressing something like the IMSB retrofit or solution on top of the purchase price is going to easily add a few thousand to five thousand dollars to your purchase price immediately, depending on how deep you want to go. You have to split the transmission from the engine block to do the IMSB so lots of guys opt to throw a new clutch in while they're in there.

Milage is tricky because again it circles back to your expectations of the car. Lots of people feel like higher milage cars are proven cars. The logic is "if something were going to happen, it would have happened." It is not true, however, that high mileage cars are immune from an IMSB failure. I think that 3,500 mi/year to 4,500 mi/year is ideal to keep the car in shape mechanically and good shape cosmetically, but that's my opinion and you're going to get a lot of answers to this. Go figure - my car sits in this range. Biased?

Drive a Cayman if you can. I personally have a love for the 911 and have since I was a tiny little guy so I just can't imagine owning a Porsche that's not a 911. The 911 isn't the end all be all, but it is for me. That's why I have a 996. The 987 is a fantastic car and you should experience it if you think it might fit your needs as well. Just beware the fallacy that the M97 engine has fixed all the M96 issues.

I recommend a new 996 owner set aside some money for the first few years as they get to know their car. I set aside $2,500 per year, used all of it some years and none of it some years. Now I have enough "996 savings" that I don't worry about stuff anymore.

Happy hunting! And don't let the IMSB and Bore Scoring stuff overwhelm you.

plpete84

Thanks for all that valuable information! I've seen quite a few resources on the IMS but quite interested to learn more about the Bore Score issue.

At the end of the day it is a German car that like you said is definitely of age! With that I'm pretty comfortable setting aside $2-$3k should something go wrong. A healthy engine is my primary concern. I'm definitely aware that suspension might need some TLC and bushings might definitely be showing their age. I actually replaced the rear sway bar links and sway bar bushings for the owner as a thank you and had a chance to get a closer look at things. The one thing I thought about was cooling. Being the first water cooled 911 I'm sure the hoses that go to the front of the car and else where might be in need of attention. Stuff like that I'd like to replace little by little in terms of work I'll be doing on the car. Engine will most likely stay stock. Maybe do suspension as needed and the "lobster" wheels as I really like that look. Besides that just enjoy the car. Mileage wise you're right and I think once it comes down to it, I'll be getting a car with the IMS done and documented. From classifieds I've seen people tend to get that out of the way and ask for a bit more money, which is fair. I've been eyeing a nice 2002 Carrera with 95k miles and IMS done in a very nice shape for $24,800. Probably a bit high given the miles but nice condition and will probably be gone by the time I'm ready!

I'll definitely try to get myself into a Cayman at some point. If anything, so I can compare and make an educated decision. Very curious to feel the difference in mid-engine vs rear engine dynamics.

hatchetf15

OP - Welcome and good hunting. I agree with the Dr. Drive a 987 S. Regardless whether 996 or 987: Borescoping any M96/97 engine is optimal for a PPI, unless recent evidence says the cylinders have been recently and properly scoped. If you can wrench at all, you can do 90% of anything on these cars on stands in your garage. Still no guarantee an IMS, RMS, AOS won’t crap the bed on you after 100 miles, but dang these cars are incredible to drive! With a $3k budget for getting stuff up to snuff, find a car that won’t need a clutch or IMS any time soon. An engine drop at a shop is appr. 10 hrs of labor. Clutch or IMS parts will run appr. $1k. The hoses on these cars are durable. Suspension parts are reasonable and the work can be done in stages, when it’s time.

And I just thought of some items for a PPI. Manometer check of system vacuum (should be 5-7 “ H2O). Trans and motor mounts. Clutch, shifter function and cable condition check. Check condition of all interior and top/bottom exterior trim pieces...those buggers can run up costs in a hurry! Check the radiators and condensers. If they have bird nests and damaged fins, that could indicate what level of care was provided. Listen to the motor (hopefully after you’ve done some research to know what a suspect engine sounds like). If the car has had a lot of TLC, you may see mag drain plug, skid plate, upgraded exhaust or suspension, nice mats, touched up interior soft touch paint, and frequent oil changes. UOAs would be icing on the cake.

essjayarr

I will be posting my car for sale on this forum soon.
I lurked around this forum for a year absorbing what could about these cars before buying one.
My approach was to buy the best early '99 I could find reasonably close to me then arrange to send it off to FSI for a complete engine rebuild/reconstruction.
I did exactly that.The car is awesome and is a blast to drive.
We have plans for to add 2 more vehicles. We need room and this one is used the least and only by myself.
For now it is only posted on thesamba where I have been a forum member for years.
This may be too much too soon for the OP, but I'm presenting it as an option.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifi...php?id=2400741
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...available.html

Astro

OP, lots of good info and comments available here on this site. I know you're looking for a 996.2, but if you decide a 996.1 is of interest, I'm trying to sell mine. '99 C2 with 103k. It has the original IMS since it's an early 98 build with the dual row bearing, plus it's a daily driver, so it's really not a concern.

plpete84

hatchetf15 - thank you and fantastic info! It's very promising that most work can be done with the car on regular stands in the driveway, at least with my current living situation. Depending on when I purchase the car I may also get a cheap daily...we shall see. I've also heard about the AOS, with it being an issue the most if you track the car - correct me if I'm wrong. I know there are no guarantees but RMS, IMS and AOS seem to be the big 3 in terms of issues to worry about. Everything else seems to be regular wear and tear that one should expect with the age of the car. Also, good to know about the hoses being durable. Ideally, I'd love to have the space to pull the engine, inspect and clean everything (slight detailing ocd) so that everything looks good and you can see any leaks easily. Thank you for the PPI tips! Making a list of things to be aware of and these are great.

essjayarr - thanks for the feedback...sounds like you did it right from the start! So far i'm sticking to the .2 variant but I never thought I'd be looking at 911's to start with so who knows if that will change.

Astro - thanks for letting me know too. Like I said, I'll be selling my GS350 to mostly fund this. It's a rare combo of features for east coast (DC) where I am so hope to get some money for it plus the car has a decent resale value. With that said, I told myself I'd like to get my bank account to a particular number before pulling the trigger on something and being in tech sales that can happen next week with a blue bird deal or next spring. Still have much to learn though!

For the record, here is the car that got me hooked. 2003 C4S. I did a full 2 stage paint correction and for a 17 year old car it cleans up quite nice! If you like a clean car as much as I do, black would be my last choice hah

Optionman1

I agree, 2003 4s clean up nicely

plpete84

Beautiful! Is there a reason why only the "4" variants received the red strip connecting the tail lights?

Optionman1

It's what makes the 4s special, but only the 4s has the red connecting strip, not the base 4. Its called a Heckelblend

ssherman68

I was in your position a few months ago. At first I had a hard time deciding between the .1 and the .2. I liked the glove box, cup holder and extra HP. But I kept getting drawn to the '99s. I liked the dual row IMS and it seems like a lot of the "car guys" favorite is the '99. I'm not a convertible guy so I those were out. I live in SoCal where there's no snow and I already have a Subaru, I didn't want the extra weight and possible complexity of the 4 even though they're better in the curves. I was able to find a '99 that checked most of the boxes within my budget and I'm happy (don't like the steering wheel on the '99 though).

I'm in IT. Our budget is pretty flush this year because we're not spending any money. My boss isn't flinching at the price of anything. So if you're dealing with companies that are still doing business you might be able to sell some big ticket items!

plpete84

ssherman68 - thanks for that info. I.ve read about the dual bearings in the .1 and was wondering why Porsche went to a single row design when dual seems more robust. I know there were still cases of failed IMS on .1 but much more rare, especially with proper oil changes. A RWD option would be my preference too since snow is pretty rare in DC and maybe I won't completely rule out a .1 but the things you mentioned to make sense. I have seen some nice examples on here with the all clear headlights and the aero kit but those seem rare as well.

On the IT front I agree with you. Somewhat fortunately I'm in the security space (Privileged Access) and while I had projects fall out due to covid and cut budgets I've also had a lot of projects take shape, especially with the new remote workforce and added risk of how people will access servers and other IT resources securely from home.

ssherman68

Yup. The dual row can still fail. It's definitely still a good idea to get it replaced if it's OEM. From the things I've read it seems like it's a U shaped curve: There are some that fail early on. The ones that don't are fine for quite a while but most of them will fail eventually. The mechanic who did my PPI has a '99 daily driver. I think he told me his IMSB failed around 175K miles and that's when he rebuilt his engine. He's now at 240K. The theory is the ones that sit a lot, take short trips and don't get the oil changed often enough get a higher concentration of gas and other contaminants in the oil that weaken the bearing seals. It's a similar situation with bore scoring. The cylinder walls get bathed with a lot of fuel while the car is still warming up. If a car spends a high percentage of its running time in the warm up phase (short trips, people starting it & not driving it in the winter...) then the cylinder walls stay under-lubricated. A good video to watch is the "Focus on Bore Scoring - Preventing Bore Scoring" on the Rennvision YouTube channel.

I lucked out with the lights and IMSB on mine. The PO replaced the IMSB with an LN bearing so mine should be good for another 4 years. It's got the factory litronic headlights on it so no fried egg look. Another previous owner had also swapped out the side marker and tail lights for more modern looking ones & I love the way it all looks!

Yeah, VPN is kind of a big deal now. We used to have between 12-20 people on our VPN. Now it's 150-370.

plpete84

Interesting... if you had the LN Engineering installed why is the bearing good for the next 4 years only? I know nothing lasts forever but sounds odd that the upgraded bearing would only last that long.

ssherman68

LN says they're good for 7 years or 70K miles I think it was. I'm sure they're being conservative. By that time if I still think I'm going to keep the car for a long time I might spring for "The Solution" which is oil fed and good for life.