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Missing water pump blades

 
Old 07-04-2019, 03:07 AM
  #46  
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Purely observational ,,, but my experience is:
You set the controller for a base RPM, its fairly slow but moves enough water to prevent hot
spotting in the engine it speeds up as the temp increases, on the race cars it give a nice smooth warmup ..

They are fairly small units, Even used once directly bolted in to the front of a 2.0 Ford Sports racer
engine with a aluminum plate as a adapter in the original water pump location. Seldom needed to
run the pump beyond about 3/4 capacity, the non fluctuation of the water speed makes the system
WAY more efficient. The race car had no alternator we ran it on total loss just on a 650CCA battery and
saw almost no difference in the capacity. So even the power draw wasn't too bad.
The pump we used ran three full heavy race seasons with no issues.. The 2.0 gets run wound out the whole
race,, so I'd guess its a decent simulation of the way our engines run..

This was on a very early version, 5 years ago, the car moved on...
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:56 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
Purely observational ,,, but my experience is:
You set the controller for a base RPM, its fairly slow but moves enough water to prevent hot
spotting in the engine it speeds up as the temp increases, on the race cars it give a nice smooth warmup ..

They are fairly small units, Even used once directly bolted in to the front of a 2.0 Ford Sports racer
engine with a aluminum plate as a adapter in the original water pump location. Seldom needed to
run the pump beyond about 3/4 capacity, the non fluctuation of the water speed makes the system
WAY more efficient. The race car had no alternator we ran it on total loss just on a 650CCA battery and
saw almost no difference in the capacity. So even the power draw wasn't too bad.
The pump we used ran three full heavy race seasons with no issues.. The 2.0 gets run wound out the whole
race,, so I'd guess its a decent simulation of the way our engines run..

This was on a very early version, 5 years ago, the car moved on...
Sounds like a good pump to use for a race car, but too complex for a street car. The simple catch screens to catch failed blades seems to be a better solution for street aplication.

I've used electric water pump drive motors before on race cars, no A/c, no alternator, no P/S, no belt except a small cog belt from an electric motor to the water pump.A total lose system, saves a lot of power, but running on a street car would just move the power loss from the water pump to the alternator.

The Davies Pump could be a more efficient pump than the conventional electric motor/cog belt WP drive systems, and possibly eliminate the worry over missing WP blades,but it looks so much like an electric Centrifugal Supercharger I almost expect Superpower from it..lol

The Davies Pump just see3ms too complex, and overkill for street application for me. I will just stay with OEM style pumps and simple catch screens, but thanks for the thoughts and suggestion.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:11 AM
  #48  
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The simple catch screens to catch failed blades seems to be a better solution for street aplication.
Been there, done that.
Two issues:
-Retaining the screens.. This is tough, as the velocity of the water is very high, and the screens want to dislodge.
-Screens may catch debris, but if they do it's easy to block the flow of coolant to the whole cylinder bank, which is worse than a localized hot spot

Due to the location of the CLT sensor, an elevation in head temperature is often not noted quickly, and blocking the flow of coolant at the pump will restrain the elevated temperature coolant from reaching the sensor quickly.

We made screens years ago for this, but never got beyond the initial development due to these two major issues.Doing something as a DIY for YOUR consumption is a lot different than doing it for the market, or for an engine that's being sold. Just imagine trying to write instructions about how someone should install this mesh, and how they'd royally screw it up, and contaminate the engine with the wire after they botched the install. Horrible!

Porschetech3, I made a support that would touch the bottom of the coolant passage to support the screen from underneath. I didn't like the screen supporting it's self, and I found that it would move some after a few days of high RPM usage. I actually used the same hardware mesh that you did, and it worked better than stainless mesh. One of my customers who makes medical devices did give me some awesome stainless mesh to use, but I could not get it to stay in place well at all. I hate to create a problem, by trying to solve a problem, so we never took any of this stuff to market.

The LN Engineering test Boxster has been running the Davies Craig booster pump since 2008, using it is nothing new around here :-)
I had the first EWP150 sent to the USA. I have used them in both Porsche and Subaru applications, with and without the factory T stat, and with and without the factory water pump in the equation. That said, the only benefit I have seen from these with the M9X engines comes from post- cooling capability on the track. Those that do back to back sessions really need this to combat heat soak. The LN Boxster would sometimes stay on the track all day long, with driver after driver borrowing the car, doing laps, session after session. The post- cooling was huge while sitting on the grid between sessions, especially with some higher speed fan tricks, and some developmental CSF radiators.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:43 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations View Post
Been there, done that.
Two issues:
-Retaining the screens.. This is tough, as the velocity of the water is very high, and the screens want to dislodge.
-Screens may catch debris, but if they do it's easy to block the flow of coolant to the whole cylinder bank, which is worse than a localized hot spot

Due to the location of the CLT sensor, an elevation in head temperature is often not noted quickly, and blocking the flow of coolant at the pump will restrain the elevated temperature coolant from reaching the sensor quickly.

We made screens years ago for this, but never got beyond the initial development due to these two major issues.Doing something as a DIY for YOUR consumption is a lot different than doing it for the market, or for an engine that's being sold. Just imagine trying to write instructions about how someone should install this mesh, and how they'd royally screw it up, and contaminate the engine with the wire after they botched the install. Horrible!

Porschetech3, I made a support that would touch the bottom of the coolant passage to support the screen from underneath. I didn't like the screen supporting it's self, and I found that it would move some after a few days of high RPM usage. I actually used the same hardware mesh that you did, and it worked better than stainless mesh. One of my customers who makes medical devices did give me some awesome stainless mesh to use, but I could not get it to stay in place well at all. I hate to create a problem, by trying to solve a problem, so we never took any of this stuff to market.

The LN Engineering test Boxster has been running the Davies Craig booster pump since 2008, using it is nothing new around here :-)
I had the first EWP150 sent to the USA. I have used them in both Porsche and Subaru applications, with and without the factory T stat, and with and without the factory water pump in the equation. That said, the only benefit I have seen from these with the M9X engines comes from post- cooling capability on the track. Those that do back to back sessions really need this to combat heat soak. The LN Boxster would sometimes stay on the track all day long, with driver after driver borrowing the car, doing laps, session after session. The post- cooling was huge while sitting on the grid between sessions, especially with some higher speed fan tricks, and some developmental CSF radiators.
As I said, the Davies Pump looks to be a good idea for a race/track dedicated car, but overkill/out-of-place for a street car.

I'm confident the welded wire mesh is secured enough to hold up to the most extreme coolant flow. It can't go anywhere, and the force would have to be enough to collapse the wire, then wad it up. Even then it would flow more than flat pieces of blades getting stuck..

As far as detecting temperature rise if/when a failure of the blades occurs, if the blades were left to chance, it would be harder to detect a localized hot spot that has been blamed to cause the head cracking, than it would be to detect a coolant low flow on a complete bank, or the whole engine after blades were missing, and take evasive action.

I know you have stated many times that the missing blades getting lodged in the head was a major concern, and the reason to recommend WP replacement every few years or so, but with the early failure of the WP I had and others have seen on Pierburg WP's, seems this issue needs to revisited.

Last edited by Porschetech3; 07-06-2019 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:26 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
Sounds like a good pump to use for a race car, but too complex for a street car. The simple catch screens to catch failed blades seems to be a better solution for street aplication.

I've used electric water pump drive motors before on race cars, no A/c, no alternator, no P/S, no belt except a small cog belt from an electric motor to the water pump.A total lose system, saves a lot of power, but running on a street car would just move the power loss from the water pump to the alternator.

The Davies Pump could be a more efficient pump than the conventional electric motor/cog belt WP drive systems, and possibly eliminate the worry over missing WP blades,but it looks so much like an electric Centrifugal Supercharger I almost expect Superpower from it..lol

The Davies Pump just see3ms too complex, and overkill for street application for me. I will just stay with OEM style pumps and simple catch screens, but thanks for the thoughts and suggestion.
The install and setup is less effort to me than many spend on a stereo.. I've also installed it in Trophy trucks,, Really helps the temps on a engine that's revving up and down in a hot environment.. But I get what your saying,, its not "tech free"
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:01 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Porschetech3 View Post
As I said, the Davies Pump looks to be a good idea for a race/track dedicated car, but overkill/out-of-place for a street car.

I'm confident the welded wire mesh is secured enough to hold up to the most extreme coolant flow. It can't go anywhere, and the force would have to be enough to collapse the wire, then wad it up. Even then it would flow more than flat pieces of blades getting stuck..

As far as detecting temperature rise if/when a failure of the blades occurs, if the blades were left to chance, it would be harder to detect a localized hot spot that has been blamed to cause the head cracking, than it would be to detect a coolant low flow on a complete bank, or the whole engine after blades were missing, and take evasive action.

I know you have stated many times that the missing blades getting lodged in the head was a major concern, and the reason to recommend WP replacement every few years or so, but with the early failure of the WP I had and others have seen on Pierburg WP's, seems this issue needs to revisited.
Hell, I’m just happy because I’m no longer being called a liar in regard to these water pump impellers losing pieces. If others have noticed it, and took steps to address this, it must be confirmed.

Amazing how that happens... Only took 15 years :-)
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:31 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by pdxmotorhead View Post
. But I get what your saying,, its not "tech free"
Yes, EXACTLY!! Thank you, that's a better description, the simplest solution is sometimes the best solution..
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:35 PM
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the simplest solution is sometimes the best solution..
To me, it's the only solution.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations View Post
Hell, I’m just happy because I’m no longer being called a liar in regard to these water pump impellers losing pieces. If others have noticed it, and took steps to address this, it must be confirmed.

Amazing how that happens... Only took 15 years :-)
You have seen more of the failed 996's than anyone. Even though I have been in a Porsche dealership as a Tech, the 996's that we saw were mostly still in warranty, or CPO cars, or had owners who were inclined to have all their work done at dealerships. Most of our work was electrical/electronic repairs, tires, brakes, alignments, maintenance, clutches, squeaks/rattles, some transmission and engine repairs, just anything and everything someone could complain about on these cars. All the cars you have seen were engine repair, so even though I have seen way more cars than you, you have seen more engine failures than I ever will.

I do wish you would share more of the detailed specs that you have learned about these engines for increasing power/longevity, I am an old ex-racer who would use them on my cars and too old go through the things I did too learn on the platform I was racing and setting some IHRA world records many years ago. But I understand you not wanting your competition to know what you have learned, but they will never catch you..
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:33 PM
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You hit some very important points here, and I am glad that you did. When people say that I am a "fear monger" it's only because failure, and bad scenarios are ALL I have seen. The issues are what have driven cars to us from all over the planet. It's kind of like being a mortician, where every customer comes in stiff.

What you said here about your dealer experience mimics exactly what I have said for years when telling my customers.Over the years I have employed quite a few dealer techs that told me the same thing about what they did while at the dealer.

But I understand you not wanting your competition to know what you have learned,
Actually as long as they play nice, that never bothers me. I have had direct competitors send technicians to my classes, and to date all of the major competitors sent techs to the classes I used to instruct for Worldpac. I even had the owners of those companies, one of which being our only real "competitor" attend the WTI class. At the time he was just getting into these engines, and he was really late to the game. I taught the same class to those people that I did to anyone else, and left the feelings out of it.

but they will never catch you..
And that's because they don't have the spirit to do so. Most of them are running around to different race tracks, wasting fuel, and tires, and living that part of the life.

As my dad always told me
"Son, a rolling stone will gather no moss"

The only competitors that we have are physics, and the economy. The humans take themselves out of the equation.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:31 PM
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Default Cheap water pumps

Ok, have to ask... so with the “quality “ OEM and Pierburg pumps failing at low mileage has anyone tried the cheap offerings on eBay.

NEW ENGINE WATER PUMP FOR PORSCHE 911 BOXSTER CARRERA

PORSCHE BOXSTER 1997-2004


With FREE GASKET


Interchange Part Number: 99610601153, AW9475, BWP-9379, 131-2307, 180-9030


These pumps start st $33.95! And at that price you could almost replace them at every oil change and still save money😉


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Old 07-06-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by carlvs View Post
Ok, have to ask... so with the “quality “ OEM and Pierburg pumps failing at low mileage has anyone tried the cheap offerings on eBay.
I haven't seen one, or know of anyone who has bought one. Maybe you could buy one and bust it open to see what's inside? Mainly the bearings and seal are the components of interest. There are a lot of manufacturers making pumps to fit the m96, but for that price point it's hard to see how they could make that cheap without it being inferior. Take some pictures and post them here.

Maybe some other members have some take off pumps of other manufacturers they can dissect for informational purpose?

I have already busted two open, one that had failed, and one that was replaced "just because"...

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Old 07-10-2019, 12:21 AM
  #58  
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I finally found some fine mesh .125 (1/8) welded steel wire (.014) mesh at Ace Hardware and order it. It is welded steel wire, then galvanized (zinc coated) after welding. I will still use the course .250 (1/4) welded steel wire (.025) mesh that is also galvanized (zinc coated) for the backing to give the strength to stabilize the catch screen. I will be making these screens for my two 99 996's to be installed when the opportunity comes.

https://www.acehardware.com/departme...-cloth/5763743
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Old 07-10-2019, 05:13 PM
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Some of the skeptical posts on here had me second guessing my choice of fiberglass mesh for the fine mesh of the catch screen. So I sent a technical request to the maker of the mesh, the response I got from Saint-Gobain ADFORS customer service/ marketing rep.? was of no help what so ever, so I decided to do some testing on my own. I wanted to take the temperature way above what would normally be encountered in normal use. I took a lid from a pickle jar and placed it on the stove top, added some cooking oil and the fiberglass mesh then turn on the eye. I monitored the temp with a laser thermometer. At 350F all was fine, at about 450F the plasticized coating/seal in the lid started to burn but the mesh was fine, I took it to over 500F but couldn't go any higher because cooking oil will self ignite around 600F. The fiberglass mesh was able to handle the 500F with no problem. This confirms my assumption that the fiberglass mesh will handle anything temp the m96 can throw at it. So for me, the fiberglass mesh or the welded/zinc coated .125 fine mesh will both work equally well.

DISCLAIMER :: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, EXTREMELY DANGEROUS !!!! UNLESS YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL RISK TAKER AND ALL YOUR INSURANCE IS PAID UP, LIFE, HOMEOWNERS ECT.


Fiberglass mesh submerged in cooking oil

At 350F all is fine

At about 450F the plasticized coating/seal in the lid started to burn, but the fiberglass mesh was fine
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:03 AM
  #60  
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Can it handle heat cycles?
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