Mike Murphy

To be honest, it’s too bad that Porsche cannot build engines that can sustain maximum performance without blowing up. Yes, I know an old car cannot always be expected to perform at these levels, but then again, there are plenty of other engine builds and designs by this and other manufacturers that can hold up and have held up. We call those bulletproof. Porsche needs to return to this design concept, even for street Cars.

fpena944

Ok so maybe it was a stretch to compare it to daily driving. But what I meant is that there are some sessions where you are going out there to set new lap times. But then there are other sessions where you're focusing more on the technical portions of the track and trying to refine your skills there so you can go flat out the next time.

That second scenario is the one that I believe to be not as hard on the car.

But back to the OPs concern and his next steps!

brwilson

Next steps: I have done some research, and there are at least two shops here in Long Beach, CA that are referenced here and other sites as doing rebuild work--UFO Motorsport and 9xx motors. UFO is actually mentioned also on the PCA website, but their phone is no longer in service.

9xx has a website that explains their exchange procedures. They also offer rebuilt motors on ebay and offer to install at no extra charge if you send them your vehicle. I called 9xx and spoke with Jason, but this was BEFORE I dropped my oil filter and revealed the glitter. He seemed very knowledgeable, asked a lot of detailed questions trying to diagnose the problem with the few details I had. He didn’t push me into a rebuilt he had on the shelf, and said that all the ready engines he had at the moment were spoken for. He though it would be best to look at my engine to see if it could be fixed, and if a rebuild engine is needed we should probably stick with mine if possible. Turnaround time would shoot for about month.

I understand that all rebuilds are not the same, just as not all engines serve the same purpose. Since my car is not a concour specimen or a performance monster, but a daily driver that I am okay with parking in a Home Depot parking lot or cruising through the canyons, I want to find someone who understands my needs for the car, not a theoretical purpose or future owner.

My problem is that I REALLY enjoyed driving on the track with the PCA for their DE/Autocross event. Apparently, building a motor that can comfortably take regular abuse will be expensive, much more than the typical rebuild/refresh offered by many. It may not work out, but I may be willing to use my AAA tow to a shop to find out.

Mike Murphy

Have you considered a Miata?

You can roll the dice on a rebuild that might be cheaper, but the risk of failure is higher than if you spend more upfront and go with a proven engine builder. You either pay now or pay later, and every time you go out there, anything can blow up, regardless.

If my engine blew up, I would not sell as a roller, but instead probably buy a used engine or have mine rebuilt for street use. If I really wanted to track, I’d get a different car.

TonyTwoBags

Here's a mod I haven't gotten around to yet but plan to do at some point. Track those temps & ease off when you go north of 250F*. You're not going to be able to run long sessions reliably but a session or two per day seems doable if you keep an eye on your temps & let it cool down in time.

*someone like Slakker has more knowledge than me on tracking temps & reliably tracking the m96

Oil temp gauge using the built-in oil temp sensor
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...mp-sensor.html

I think either way you look at it, you'll need to spend another $5-10k to get track reliable. Whether that's a turbo, an M3 or miata on the side, or a dedicated dry sump system like this:

Boxster Dry Sump System
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...mp-system.html

brwilson

The shop I was initially towed to was full of BMWs and Miatas prepped for the track. The mechanic said they are cheap and easy to work on. One of the quicker cars at the track seemed to be a beater Miata--the muffler started to fall off and the owner claims the car had around 87 horsepower and the tires are less than $200 a set, but it seemed to keep up pretty well.


I also own a 1968 912. It is fun to drive but there is no way I would take it to the track. This is why I got the older 996--something I could drive a bit harder--bad choice.

strathconaman

You should do an oil analysis. No seriously, hear me out.

The oil analysis would shed some light on if the failure was quick or slow, and what was damaged beyond the IMS.

Also it would be good for a laugh.

mrjonger

Sorry to hear man. Might want to talk to Arredondo in Torrance (I haved used) and Auto Werkstatt in Manhattan Beach (I haven't used but have heard good things).

If you're looking for a track car, I think you should look at the prices of track cars. You could probably buy a nicely built Miata (or two) for a track ready M96 rebuild. Maybe a s2000 or Integra GSR if you want more juice.

808Bill

9xx has a good rep...Good luck and keep us posted!

brwilson

So, I told the local engine builder what I found, and he was able to describe it before I could finish. Apparently, and I am simplifying, the gold flakes indicate a rod bearing failure. Most likely, the bearing was starved of oil when cornering and failed, probably also causing damage to the connecting rod and crankshaft. So, a rebuild would at minimum involve replacing the rod, probably the crankshaft, and any other damaged internals. Heads are likely ok or salvageable. He would have to crack it open to find out.


He is fairly certain that the high-g cornering in tracking this car caused the problem. Since I did not have an upgraded baffle in the sump, necessary for tracking, parts of the engine were momentarily starved for oil. I guess this failure is not common in everyday driving, but because I tracked the car when it died, that is the most likely culprit. Even a inexpensive baffle upgrade may have helped alleviate this.


At any rate, there is a general flat fee estimate for a rebuild engine. There is a fee to crack open and diagnose which is credited if I do the repair. The non-salvageable components (e.g. crankshaft, etc.) will need to be sourced and deducted from the core charge, but in this case the core would be my own engine, so I am just buying these components. The engine will be rebuilt with a list of standard replacement parts and additional parts as needed.


This all makes sense, except I didn't think my street tires could pull enough Gs to starve the engine of oil!


Also, the misfire codes, that went away, puzzled him a bit. He thought it could be that the AOS was overwhelmed and dumped oil into the intake, momentarily fouling the plugs in one bank. I guess this can be likely if you really top off the engine oil when tracking, which I did. He recommends running the engine oil on the low side.


I don't want to misrepresent what he told me, or cause controversy, but this is my understanding after a brief phone conversation. It all makes sense to me, though.

TonyTwoBags

The deep sumps don't prevent failure while tracking based on everything I've read here. They can delay the temperature increase that causes viscosity breakdown and/or foaming (often labelled starvation). But multiple sessions in a day are likely to overwhelm even a deep sump quantity of oil. Don't beat yourself up over the sump thing as many have lost engines with deep sumps.

I don't want to pry too much, but is there any way you can share ballpark figures on the rebuild so we can keep tabs on the different cost options out there? Good luck moving forward, it sounds like you're in good hands.

pmkazz

Check out Vision in Laguna Hills. Dwain is the owner and has built engines waiting to be sold.

brwilson

I don't want to post exact numbers since everything is still up in the air, but 9xx lists their engines for sale on Ebay , which is the rate he is quoting me for my engine, but that price assumes a core value of $6500. So really, it is $15K for the engine, minus the value of usable core parts (up to $6500) plus any upgrades--I assume sky's the limit. They will install for free since I can ship/tow my car there. There is a flat fee to break down the motor and assess the core, which is credited back if you choose to do the rebuild. It is not posted anywhere, so I won't quote it here, but it is equivalent to 10% of the full motor cost. There are also other options, but I need to do some soul searching first.

TonyTwoBags

Thanks, that's helpful.

Mike Murphy

A lot of folks think that street tires cannot generate enough g-force to make a car fast on a track. Those same folks say things like, “you have street tires, so you won’t really be pushing it too hard.” Makes no sense to me. Wide open throttle can be had on any tire. At-the-limit braking as well. So what’s left is turning, and street tires are able to attain 0.9g easily, enough to pin most of the oil to the side of the oil container.

I ran all seasons on my two track days and saw oil pressure drops in long sweeping turns on both of them. Others do as well. It’s actually pretty common with these cars, and Vettes and BMWs as well.