Fixed Boost controllers
10-24-2003, 06:33 AM
#1
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Fixed Boost controllers
Temperature is down around 2degC (36DegF?) in the mornings now in the UK, I have noticed that whilst my motor is even peppier, It allows less overboost at peak torque (4500). Maybe 1.15 -1.2 bar compared with up to 1.5 bar when it is less cold. At peak power it is dropping to under 0.9bar.
The Motronic is obviously doing its job and with the air mass being relatively dense it is lowering the boost to keep within its parameters and protect the engine.
My question to those of you using auxillary boost controllers (Viperbob I think you do) which hold a fixed boost level regardless of ambient conditions is, are you concerned that the lack of motronic boost control could cause you problems ?
The Motronic is obviously doing its job and with the air mass being relatively dense it is lowering the boost to keep within its parameters and protect the engine.
My question to those of you using auxillary boost controllers (Viperbob I think you do) which hold a fixed boost level regardless of ambient conditions is, are you concerned that the lack of motronic boost control could cause you problems ?
10-24-2003, 11:22 AM
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Not really worried about it with the boost controller. Living in the Bay Area, my temperature difference on the track during the year will generally run from around 80 degrees F to about 100. So a pretty tight range of temp, so no real issue. I used one in a 3.6L Turbo on the East coast with temps running from 30 degrees at some track events to over 100 with varying levels of humidity. Still there was no problem with this car (unless you count that tire wall...)
10-24-2003, 12:57 PM
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wow Bob, I didn't know you were doing the boost controller tango. Are you mimicing, sorry to liken it but only reference, the promotive setup? I find it interesting that they can get such power without opening up the motor. I would think it would risk premature wear and that's why almost all other tuners don't enlist the method.
10-24-2003, 06:05 PM
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Bob, I also have the Protomotive set up with the controller. I run up to 1 bar without a larger intercooler and havn't had any problems. But I have owned the car for a short time.
10-24-2003, 06:58 PM
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Mike, I will be running mine up to 1.2 BAR with my K24s as soon as I make a couple of adjustments... At 1 BAR, I have driven on the track a few times so far with no issues at all.
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10-24-2003, 08:31 PM
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I'm trying to get some work done on these K24s right now. I am waiting for Kevin to get situated and then I plan on doing the zero clearance / billet titanium wheel w/ larger impeller upgrade. Should be fun...
Sorry Mike. Remember, we always have to look forward to the next mod....
Sorry Mike. Remember, we always have to look forward to the next mod....
10-24-2003, 08:38 PM
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I run a Thielert programable ECU which allows two programs. I set up one for 91 Octane and the other for race gas 100 octane.
The sysem is not as syphticated as the motronic but it has a lot of parameters which I tune the high program with no more than 1.1 Bar if I'm running in the desert ( WillowSprings or Buttonwillow). The temps there can get over 100F. I've seen some engine failures which turned out to be running heavy advance and boost with too little octane. I do long for the cool crisp days where these cars put out a lot of power, but I've found those are the days with bad traction.
The sysem is not as syphticated as the motronic but it has a lot of parameters which I tune the high program with no more than 1.1 Bar if I'm running in the desert ( WillowSprings or Buttonwillow). The temps there can get over 100F. I've seen some engine failures which turned out to be running heavy advance and boost with too little octane. I do long for the cool crisp days where these cars put out a lot of power, but I've found those are the days with bad traction.
10-25-2003, 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by viperbob
Mike, I will be running mine up to 1.2 BAR with my K24s as soon as I make a couple of adjustments... At 1 BAR, I have driven on the track a few times so far with no issues at all.
Mike, I will be running mine up to 1.2 BAR with my K24s as soon as I make a couple of adjustments... At 1 BAR, I have driven on the track a few times so far with no issues at all.
This is the bit I find difficult to grasp: 1.2 bar on an optimally specced 993tt motor should give you about 620hp at peak power. Now if you are not running cams, EVO intercooler and pressure sensing type intake then I would have thought there is no way you will be making more than 540hp (OK the p/m intercooler is an unknown). Now 540hp can be made with 0.95bar on an optimally specced 3.6tt motor. So can you see where I am coming from ?
I ran a protomotive ECU with the extra wiring loom (Cargraphic I/C) and modified KKK16s (bigger compressor/cut back exhaust wheels) with a boost controller and 5bar fuel press reg. I dynoed it at various boost levels 0.9 bar, 1 bar, 1.1 bar 1.15 bar - it made no difference to the power output (a measly 440hp).
Todd K said he really needed to have sight of the various outputs to be able to tune the ECU properly and the generic one he did for me was out of sync. This was obviously unpracticle so I ditched the set up. I am definately not slating Todd K here - he knows what he is talking about Big time. So are you having your ECU programming fine tuned to work with the extra boost ?
JJayB
Is yours an Andial set-up ? From what I have read, whilst they do not seem to have mastered manipulating the Bosch Motronic, their set-ups look very conservative - doesn't their 3.8tt deliver its 560hp at 0.9bar !!
10-25-2003, 11:22 AM
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TB993TT,
When I had the Unichip setup (TRG sold that entire business recently. I Think they were starting to get a tarnished reputation from it) with a stock intercooler and the K24s it was putting out 507HP. This was prior to some other modifications that I have done recently, especially to the exhaust. Now add in Todd's ECU and things work really well. Also, with some of the turbo work to be done soon my expectation is that it will be around the 600+ HP level at 1.2 BAR. I will be getting it dyno'd asap after these mods. Also, there is a chance that I may be able to get my car in the upcoming Excellence magazine shootout. If seems that there will be a number of 996TTs there in various stages of tune, but no 993TTs. It could be fun... Stay tuned.
When I had the Unichip setup (TRG sold that entire business recently. I Think they were starting to get a tarnished reputation from it) with a stock intercooler and the K24s it was putting out 507HP. This was prior to some other modifications that I have done recently, especially to the exhaust. Now add in Todd's ECU and things work really well. Also, with some of the turbo work to be done soon my expectation is that it will be around the 600+ HP level at 1.2 BAR. I will be getting it dyno'd asap after these mods. Also, there is a chance that I may be able to get my car in the upcoming Excellence magazine shootout. If seems that there will be a number of 996TTs there in various stages of tune, but no 993TTs. It could be fun... Stay tuned.
10-25-2003, 12:29 PM
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Viperbob
Good luck with the quest for 600hp - look forward to seeing the dyno sheets.
It would be great if you could attend that shootout to keep those 996tt's honest
Good luck with the quest for 600hp - look forward to seeing the dyno sheets.
It would be great if you could attend that shootout to keep those 996tt's honest
10-25-2003, 02:01 PM
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TB993tt
I am running the Andial set up.
Andial has the license for the Thielert ECU in the USA. I don't know of anyone who has spent $ and time trying to make the Motronic work in a twin plug set up. I've enquired with several tunners and its basicly a R and D project. The factory race GT2 came with TAG 3.8 ecu's and some teams replaced them with Thielert.
The 560hp to 570 at .9-.95 bar are the published numbers. These are a bit conservitive. With race gas and a more agressive program at 1-1.1 bars it closer to 622 hp. What they don't tell you is its 822 NM of torque at 4500rpm.
I am running the Andial set up.
Andial has the license for the Thielert ECU in the USA. I don't know of anyone who has spent $ and time trying to make the Motronic work in a twin plug set up. I've enquired with several tunners and its basicly a R and D project. The factory race GT2 came with TAG 3.8 ecu's and some teams replaced them with Thielert.
The 560hp to 570 at .9-.95 bar are the published numbers. These are a bit conservitive. With race gas and a more agressive program at 1-1.1 bars it closer to 622 hp. What they don't tell you is its 822 NM of torque at 4500rpm.
10-25-2003, 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by JJayB
TB993tt
I am running the Andial set up.
Andial has the license for the Thielert ECU in the USA. I don't know of anyone who has spent $ and time trying to make the Motronic work in a twin plug set up. I've enquired with several tunners and its basicly a R and D project. The factory race GT2 came with TAG 3.8 ecu's and some teams replaced them with Thielert.
The 560hp to 570 at .9-.95 bar are the published numbers. These are a bit conservitive. With race gas and a more agressive program at 1-1.1 bars it closer to 622 hp. What they don't tell you is its 822 NM of torque at 4500rpm.
TB993tt
I am running the Andial set up.
Andial has the license for the Thielert ECU in the USA. I don't know of anyone who has spent $ and time trying to make the Motronic work in a twin plug set up. I've enquired with several tunners and its basicly a R and D project. The factory race GT2 came with TAG 3.8 ecu's and some teams replaced them with Thielert.
The 560hp to 570 at .9-.95 bar are the published numbers. These are a bit conservitive. With race gas and a more agressive program at 1-1.1 bars it closer to 622 hp. What they don't tell you is its 822 NM of torque at 4500rpm.
According to Paul Frere, the factory used TAG rather than Bosch since TAG were a smaller more focused outfit who could make changes quickly. Most of the leading customer cars ran Motronic mainly from RS. I remember one anecdote about when it got cold, the EVO intercooler was so efficient that the TAG ECU was outside its limited parameters - in the end they had to blank off part of the ECU to increase
the inlet temp.Do you run 822NM ? if yes, I would be very interested in knowing what sort of clutch are you using ?
Thanks
10-25-2003, 05:43 PM
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TB993tt
I'am running a modified GT2 clutch and flywheel. Clutchmatsers of Rialto CA. modified the pressure plate with 20% more clamping force. I went thru three clutches before I found one that worked and could be driven on the street and hold boost in 4thgear under load.
You asked the right question. The clutch set up is a dead giveaway on engine power levels.
I would think that 757NM is over the line for Porsche clutch parts.
Porsche Motorsport North America used TAg and Thielert ecus on the Gt2 racecars. I'll contact RS and see if they can help me.
I'am running a modified GT2 clutch and flywheel. Clutchmatsers of Rialto CA. modified the pressure plate with 20% more clamping force. I went thru three clutches before I found one that worked and could be driven on the street and hold boost in 4thgear under load.
You asked the right question. The clutch set up is a dead giveaway on engine power levels.
I would think that 757NM is over the line for Porsche clutch parts.
Porsche Motorsport North America used TAg and Thielert ecus on the Gt2 racecars. I'll contact RS and see if they can help me.