On the Track in my 3.8L today (long)
11-18-2007, 04:23 PM
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On the Track in my 3.8L today (long)
Let me start by saying I love all 911's with the exception of the 1999 carrera and it's egg shaped headlights.
okay- secondly, I'm not a pro, or experienced, or crazy enough to drive 10/10ths in any of my cars yet. I've not been formally trained other than 2 day long sessions with one instructor, on the track- once in my 993 and another time in my gt3 last week. So I am in fact, not the fastest guy on the track other than certain sections because of my hp advantage.
Last- this is a pretty long entry but involves no photos yet.
Recently I took euro delivery of my new 2008 997 GT3. I love it, great steering, amazingly confident brakes, super tight shifting action with hand and foot. Vacation of a lifetime, for me- 4000 km solo across europe in two weeks. I tracked the car 4 days ago in italy.
The downside of this is that I've gone over a month without driving my 993TT - vacation. The day after I got back, hopped in the 993 and went to the track...motorsport ranch in texas (fairly simple 3.1 mile loop) and promptly had an unbelievable time. Not too many people out, and 70*F air temps (sorry northeast guys).
The session was cut a bit short because some guy in his 2003 Turbo spun and broke his radiator, and decided like a noob to drive another lap which of course spilled coolant everywhere and shut us down for about an hour. but I got to hang out with some buddies in their 996 gt3's and shoot the breeze, ask questions about their slick tires and ceramic brakes and track alignments.
I'm in my car solo, just so that if I spin and roll only I die- hey it's probably better that way, right? No worries, not a spin or crash today or anything like that, just funny how easy it is in my car to overpower the tires with throttle, basically because my car has over 500lb/ft of torque (andial built twin plug monster thingy). also, trail braking really brings the tail around (wanted or unwanted).
But overall I have a good day, hitting most but missing a few apexes, trailbraking while downshifting a bit too late or deep into some turns, and got sideways a handful of times but manage to always straighten it out with some opposite lock and more throttle on turns over 70mph and braking or easing off the gas under 50mph for the really tight sections. It seemed like my gt3 was more likely to understeer around hairpins at similar speeds (maybe because the factory alignment is wack for tracking?) but all the cells in my brain kept getting surprised with how nimble the 993TT is when it's lined up well.
even for 12-15 year old technology this car is amazing. having a ton more torque than stock sure makes things scary while accelerating fast in 2nd or 3rd gear coming out of a turn or on high speed linked turns but @#$% it's so much fun! I know a lot of people have wondered how the GT3 and 993TT stack up, street and track, so here's my story:
andial 993 TT 3.8L twin plug with street gas ecu- 571hp. awd, no traction control. 285 rear tires. upgraded 380/350 mm steel brakes, 1990's abs system. techart exhaust system. pss9 suspension, roll cage installed. 800 miles on michelin ps2 tires. slightly track alignned (don't know the specs off my head).70,702 miles. no radiator. good nakamichi stereo. full leather and leather sport seats. polar silver.
997 gt3- 415 hp. stock alignment, exhaust, cheapo stereo. pirelli corsa stock tires. steel brakes. 315 rear tires. 2008 abs, tcs, psm, etc. Navigation system. Red seat belts, stitching, alcantara interior. 2,7xx miles. cobalt blue. carbon fiber here and there.
street driving- in the soft setting, the gt3 is still harder than the 993 when hitting potholes or bumps, but handles rough roads better, especially while braking.
993 is easier to sit in stop and go traffic due to longer and smoother travel on clutch. 993 is smaller and although stereo is better and easier to park, all the flexing of the chassis is a bit squeaky and funky.
freeway driving- gt3 rides much better in smooth tarmac, but lacks the smooth and enormous torque of the turbo so makes passing more of a drafting, revving, racing type of manuever instead of the explosive bullet train like easy thrust of my 993. Gt3 exhaust note is louder and meaner at all speeds. more wind noise in 993 due to near vertical windshield.
tight track sections and turns-
gt3 turns in much better, but mid turn pushes and harder to overpower the tires (a bit to rotate the car)which have tons of grip at all speeds unless on exit with revs over 5500, and full throttle in second gear for example. traction control is hard to pinpoint but definitely slows down the exit speeds if your inputs are choppy and sloppy, or too blunt.
993 turns in slower, has a bit of turbo lag, and prefers to drift out of corners by progressively increasing throttle. gt3 has a much higher and harder edge to approach, while 993 gets into sketchy traction under throttle around 3500 but has more margin for error due to the awd (not just for traction but because the nose stays more stable with the weight).
gt3 is more agile but has a bit of a numbness in the middle of turns over 135 degrees and slow speeds. brakes on the gt3 are much better and more confidence inspiring even under full abs slam and the tail slightly wagging- 993 feels like the tires all might slide while under abs threshold comparatively. the older pedals of the 993 are easier for me to heel-toe, maybe because I've put 35,000 miles on 993 pedals in the last 5 years.
loose, high speed track sections-
chicanes and turns not requiring braking- gt3 explodes into turns, suspension works much faster to soak up mid corner bumps and curbs. 993 slides earlier, more smoothly but less inclined to change directions without easing off gas.
rwd in gt3 makes steering more nimble and the brakes are better so you know if you're coming in too hot you can make several adjustments to get back in line. car feels light but if you miss your shift point or let the revs drop, the lack of torque is really punishing. the amount of power is not overwhelming, so you can push deeper and deeper into turns each lap.
awd in 993 means car doesn't allow as many mid corner adjustments without being taken off line. traction is an issue- tires always feel slippery due to high torque. but like I said earlier the limit is lower and has more margin for error- car slides so early it doesn't have a chance to snap.
I would say the Andial is like an ice skate- very sharp but has simple limits in cornering- smoothness translates to speed more so than overapplying power. too much right foot and car will leap forward and blow past the point of contol. old technology, but ages graceful and artistic in delivery. passing the limits lead to slides and spins. moves like a ballroom dancer- when properly choreographed is really poetic- aka if you know the track really well- you won't have any problems. lifting the throttle slides the rear to the outside.
the 997gt3 is like nike shox cross trainers- state of the art. more traction, sharper directional changes, but due to light weight makes control an illusion on difficult surfaces. higher limits lead to snapping. moves like a boxer, faster reflexes and easier to adjust, better suited for bursts and combinations of versatile tracks. can learn track on the fly because it's not so fast that you fly past your braking points and turns in much more immediately. having computers helps the first few laps to build confidence but become unnecessary after a few sessions on the same track. much louder and meaner sounds also.
A lot of people have driven both, and I personally love them both for different reasons. I'm lucky to have such a great job to own and keep them both.
I'll put some pics up when I get back from lunch.
okay- secondly, I'm not a pro, or experienced, or crazy enough to drive 10/10ths in any of my cars yet. I've not been formally trained other than 2 day long sessions with one instructor, on the track- once in my 993 and another time in my gt3 last week. So I am in fact, not the fastest guy on the track other than certain sections because of my hp advantage.
Last- this is a pretty long entry but involves no photos yet.
Recently I took euro delivery of my new 2008 997 GT3. I love it, great steering, amazingly confident brakes, super tight shifting action with hand and foot. Vacation of a lifetime, for me- 4000 km solo across europe in two weeks. I tracked the car 4 days ago in italy.
The downside of this is that I've gone over a month without driving my 993TT - vacation. The day after I got back, hopped in the 993 and went to the track...motorsport ranch in texas (fairly simple 3.1 mile loop) and promptly had an unbelievable time. Not too many people out, and 70*F air temps (sorry northeast guys).
The session was cut a bit short because some guy in his 2003 Turbo spun and broke his radiator, and decided like a noob to drive another lap which of course spilled coolant everywhere and shut us down for about an hour. but I got to hang out with some buddies in their 996 gt3's and shoot the breeze, ask questions about their slick tires and ceramic brakes and track alignments.
I'm in my car solo, just so that if I spin and roll only I die- hey it's probably better that way, right? No worries, not a spin or crash today or anything like that, just funny how easy it is in my car to overpower the tires with throttle, basically because my car has over 500lb/ft of torque (andial built twin plug monster thingy). also, trail braking really brings the tail around (wanted or unwanted).
But overall I have a good day, hitting most but missing a few apexes, trailbraking while downshifting a bit too late or deep into some turns, and got sideways a handful of times but manage to always straighten it out with some opposite lock and more throttle on turns over 70mph and braking or easing off the gas under 50mph for the really tight sections. It seemed like my gt3 was more likely to understeer around hairpins at similar speeds (maybe because the factory alignment is wack for tracking?) but all the cells in my brain kept getting surprised with how nimble the 993TT is when it's lined up well.
even for 12-15 year old technology this car is amazing. having a ton more torque than stock sure makes things scary while accelerating fast in 2nd or 3rd gear coming out of a turn or on high speed linked turns but @#$% it's so much fun! I know a lot of people have wondered how the GT3 and 993TT stack up, street and track, so here's my story:
andial 993 TT 3.8L twin plug with street gas ecu- 571hp. awd, no traction control. 285 rear tires. upgraded 380/350 mm steel brakes, 1990's abs system. techart exhaust system. pss9 suspension, roll cage installed. 800 miles on michelin ps2 tires. slightly track alignned (don't know the specs off my head).70,702 miles. no radiator. good nakamichi stereo. full leather and leather sport seats. polar silver.
997 gt3- 415 hp. stock alignment, exhaust, cheapo stereo. pirelli corsa stock tires. steel brakes. 315 rear tires. 2008 abs, tcs, psm, etc. Navigation system. Red seat belts, stitching, alcantara interior. 2,7xx miles. cobalt blue. carbon fiber here and there.
street driving- in the soft setting, the gt3 is still harder than the 993 when hitting potholes or bumps, but handles rough roads better, especially while braking.
993 is easier to sit in stop and go traffic due to longer and smoother travel on clutch. 993 is smaller and although stereo is better and easier to park, all the flexing of the chassis is a bit squeaky and funky.
freeway driving- gt3 rides much better in smooth tarmac, but lacks the smooth and enormous torque of the turbo so makes passing more of a drafting, revving, racing type of manuever instead of the explosive bullet train like easy thrust of my 993. Gt3 exhaust note is louder and meaner at all speeds. more wind noise in 993 due to near vertical windshield.
tight track sections and turns-
gt3 turns in much better, but mid turn pushes and harder to overpower the tires (a bit to rotate the car)which have tons of grip at all speeds unless on exit with revs over 5500, and full throttle in second gear for example. traction control is hard to pinpoint but definitely slows down the exit speeds if your inputs are choppy and sloppy, or too blunt.
993 turns in slower, has a bit of turbo lag, and prefers to drift out of corners by progressively increasing throttle. gt3 has a much higher and harder edge to approach, while 993 gets into sketchy traction under throttle around 3500 but has more margin for error due to the awd (not just for traction but because the nose stays more stable with the weight).
gt3 is more agile but has a bit of a numbness in the middle of turns over 135 degrees and slow speeds. brakes on the gt3 are much better and more confidence inspiring even under full abs slam and the tail slightly wagging- 993 feels like the tires all might slide while under abs threshold comparatively. the older pedals of the 993 are easier for me to heel-toe, maybe because I've put 35,000 miles on 993 pedals in the last 5 years.
loose, high speed track sections-
chicanes and turns not requiring braking- gt3 explodes into turns, suspension works much faster to soak up mid corner bumps and curbs. 993 slides earlier, more smoothly but less inclined to change directions without easing off gas.
rwd in gt3 makes steering more nimble and the brakes are better so you know if you're coming in too hot you can make several adjustments to get back in line. car feels light but if you miss your shift point or let the revs drop, the lack of torque is really punishing. the amount of power is not overwhelming, so you can push deeper and deeper into turns each lap.
awd in 993 means car doesn't allow as many mid corner adjustments without being taken off line. traction is an issue- tires always feel slippery due to high torque. but like I said earlier the limit is lower and has more margin for error- car slides so early it doesn't have a chance to snap.
I would say the Andial is like an ice skate- very sharp but has simple limits in cornering- smoothness translates to speed more so than overapplying power. too much right foot and car will leap forward and blow past the point of contol. old technology, but ages graceful and artistic in delivery. passing the limits lead to slides and spins. moves like a ballroom dancer- when properly choreographed is really poetic- aka if you know the track really well- you won't have any problems. lifting the throttle slides the rear to the outside.
the 997gt3 is like nike shox cross trainers- state of the art. more traction, sharper directional changes, but due to light weight makes control an illusion on difficult surfaces. higher limits lead to snapping. moves like a boxer, faster reflexes and easier to adjust, better suited for bursts and combinations of versatile tracks. can learn track on the fly because it's not so fast that you fly past your braking points and turns in much more immediately. having computers helps the first few laps to build confidence but become unnecessary after a few sessions on the same track. much louder and meaner sounds also.
A lot of people have driven both, and I personally love them both for different reasons. I'm lucky to have such a great job to own and keep them both.
I'll put some pics up when I get back from lunch.
11-18-2007, 06:18 PM
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Thanks CJ very informative.
Not sure if this will help as I have no direct experience of 993TT against 997GT3. However comparing 993GT2 against a 996 supercup car on track in general this is my suggestion. 993 typically traditional 911. get braking done and car settled prior to turn in. If you get it right you can use full power on exit (depending on cormer) and use that power to give you grip. supercup car need to be lead to the apex prior to power or it starts to wash out. Latter far less tail happy but both give the same results. That bloody big grin,
regards, Graeme
Not sure if this will help as I have no direct experience of 993TT against 997GT3. However comparing 993GT2 against a 996 supercup car on track in general this is my suggestion. 993 typically traditional 911. get braking done and car settled prior to turn in. If you get it right you can use full power on exit (depending on cormer) and use that power to give you grip. supercup car need to be lead to the apex prior to power or it starts to wash out. Latter far less tail happy but both give the same results. That bloody big grin,
regards, Graeme
11-18-2007, 06:20 PM
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Wow, nice write-up CJ. If you shod the GT3 with R6's all the understeer/oversteer shenanigans disappears completely.
If you come to TWS in Dec I have gotten you for sure a right seat and still working on a left seat for you.
If you come to TWS in Dec I have gotten you for sure a right seat and still working on a left seat for you.
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11-18-2007, 10:00 PM
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CJ,
I see a second career opportunity in motorsports when your done playing. Nice write up.
The 997 GT3 is really a nice piece, and benfits from tire technology and more purposeful
chassis.
With some R rubber on the 3.8 it will feel more planted. You still won't be able to put all the
power down but thats half the fun.
I see a second career opportunity in motorsports when your done playing. Nice write up.
The 997 GT3 is really a nice piece, and benfits from tire technology and more purposeful
chassis.
With some R rubber on the 3.8 it will feel more planted. You still won't be able to put all the
power down but thats half the fun.
11-19-2007, 12:07 AM
#10
Race Director
C.J.
Excellent write up and analysis of the 2 superb machines.
I just have a few comments. First you mentioned a few times that the GT3 is light weight. While the Porsche site lists the curb weight as 3,075 lbs, owners had actually weighted the 997 GT3 in at 3,220 lbs. So the 993tt is really not much heavier.
Lighter (momentum) cars can carry more speed into corners so they can exit corners with higher inherited speed (Miata and MR2s for instance). If the GT3 is a better momentum car than the 993tt, it's probably not because of the weight, but a much stiffer chasis and state of the art suspension design. I am amazed by what a well-sorted 993tt can do in the cornering department.
To me, the main difference in how the 2 car drives would be the torque number. The 997GT3, while posting a nice HP number (415 HP), only has a peak torque of 298 ft-lb. As you have noted, the 993tt has 70% more torque than the GT3, and the tq is available in a much wider rev. band. That means the 993tt is much more forgiving in gear selection and shift points. You can make a slight shifting mistake and the monster torque still will bail you out. In the GT3, if you are not running near peak tq at all times, your time will suffer quite dramatically.
I am by no means an accomplished driver, but when I took the Ruf to Thunderhill last April, I was totally in awe of what the car can do. Knowing that the 993tts came out in the mid 1990s, it is a car well ahead of it's time in terms of performance.
You have 2 cars that most people would die for (not literally I hope). Enjoy in great health.
CP
Excellent write up and analysis of the 2 superb machines.
I just have a few comments. First you mentioned a few times that the GT3 is light weight. While the Porsche site lists the curb weight as 3,075 lbs, owners had actually weighted the 997 GT3 in at 3,220 lbs. So the 993tt is really not much heavier.
Lighter (momentum) cars can carry more speed into corners so they can exit corners with higher inherited speed (Miata and MR2s for instance). If the GT3 is a better momentum car than the 993tt, it's probably not because of the weight, but a much stiffer chasis and state of the art suspension design. I am amazed by what a well-sorted 993tt can do in the cornering department.
To me, the main difference in how the 2 car drives would be the torque number. The 997GT3, while posting a nice HP number (415 HP), only has a peak torque of 298 ft-lb. As you have noted, the 993tt has 70% more torque than the GT3, and the tq is available in a much wider rev. band. That means the 993tt is much more forgiving in gear selection and shift points. You can make a slight shifting mistake and the monster torque still will bail you out. In the GT3, if you are not running near peak tq at all times, your time will suffer quite dramatically.
I am by no means an accomplished driver, but when I took the Ruf to Thunderhill last April, I was totally in awe of what the car can do. Knowing that the 993tts came out in the mid 1990s, it is a car well ahead of it's time in terms of performance.
You have 2 cars that most people would die for (not literally I hope). Enjoy in great health.
CP
11-19-2007, 12:47 AM
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thanks again guys- jimmy, are you able to use R compounds on the street at all? I don't have an suv to tow my car around ( i just hate automatic transmissions!) so I do the drive to and from the track thing. using just a bit of buttery drifting and sliding on the andial really is good clean fun. I'm sure running something wider than stock would dramatically improve traction as well...guess I need to get track wheels and tires!
pong- you're right the torque definitely helps beginners like me, another thing I was thinking about in terms of rotating the car is how the shorter wheelbase for the 993 makes it a bit easier as well. the gt3 can definitely carry much more momentum because the suspension is easier to manage even when soft- superb chassis and amazing brakes just in case.
major difference in the two cars with 100kg or so of weight difference is the lack of weight in the front of the gt3- obviously the AWD components in the turbo create a bit more stability but diminish the agility on initial turn in.
scott- you're right. after a few more months when I can really push the gt3 around I'm sure a new alignment will amaze me on that front as well...
pong- you're right the torque definitely helps beginners like me, another thing I was thinking about in terms of rotating the car is how the shorter wheelbase for the 993 makes it a bit easier as well. the gt3 can definitely carry much more momentum because the suspension is easier to manage even when soft- superb chassis and amazing brakes just in case.
major difference in the two cars with 100kg or so of weight difference is the lack of weight in the front of the gt3- obviously the AWD components in the turbo create a bit more stability but diminish the agility on initial turn in.
scott- you're right. after a few more months when I can really push the gt3 around I'm sure a new alignment will amaze me on that front as well...
11-19-2007, 01:48 AM
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Nice writeup CJ! As far as driving R cmpds on the street, specifically to the track. Yes, you can, I do it all the time from LI to Pocono/Watkins(200mi). As long as they're not worn out and it ain't raining you should be fine. Damn, I'm jealous of your weather down there, track days year round, must really suck.
11-19-2007, 01:47 PM
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yeah well don't point that at me- it will get frosty and miserable here at some point, but those jerks in socal...those are the ones you should be jealous of! haha
the problem is I want to track all my cars, and the idea of having them all on various forms of R compound with spare wheels is kind of a bumout! but if I put the R comps on my 993TT that'd be cool- I don't drive it in bad weather anyway, that's what the audi is for...
JJayB- which streetable R comps would you suggest? I'll get them asap...I'd really like to use my car as intended once a week at least without having to be so squirley on track (although it is really fun!)