The real 0-300 km/h ultimate true-hp test :)
09-17-2007, 07:37 PM
#31
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in light of your list of reliable Porsche hp on the 993tt.
if 600+ hp and sustained full load is not really possible without short rebuilding cycles the CGT shines.
Add that to the way better suspension / handling, braking and the even lower production numbers the value of the CGT becomes clear even to non-collectors.
(not that maintenance for the CGT is cheap though)
if 600+ hp and sustained full load is not really possible without short rebuilding cycles the CGT shines.
Add that to the way better suspension / handling, braking and the even lower production numbers the value of the CGT becomes clear even to non-collectors.
(not that maintenance for the CGT is cheap though)
09-17-2007, 11:41 PM
#32
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Jussi,
mail me @ rolandroth AT mac.com & I will find a way to send you video of some of my runs. Also the factory Ruf alignment spec's I use.
Cheers
Roland AKa Ruf-Racer
mail me @ rolandroth AT mac.com & I will find a way to send you video of some of my runs. Also the factory Ruf alignment spec's I use.
Cheers
Roland AKa Ruf-Racer
09-18-2007, 06:06 AM
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in light of your list of reliable Porsche hp on the 993tt.
if 600+ hp and sustained full load is not really possible without short rebuilding cycles the CGT shines.
Add that to the way better suspension / handling, braking and the even lower production numbers the value of the CGT becomes clear even to non-collectors.
(not that maintenance for the CGT is cheap though)
if 600+ hp and sustained full load is not really possible without short rebuilding cycles the CGT shines.
Add that to the way better suspension / handling, braking and the even lower production numbers the value of the CGT becomes clear even to non-collectors.
(not that maintenance for the CGT is cheap though)
The de-tuned nature of the CGT is apparent when you realise that the CGT RS stage 1 kit is basically bigger exhaust and 98 Ron ECU tune to bump it up to 121hp/l naturally aspirated....
09-18-2007, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Stummel
is stock for 95 RON?
09-18-2007, 09:41 AM
#36
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Very fast car Jussi 
Would be great to see what AIT numbers you get via the OBD from the ecu using a Hammer.
The AIT test TB mentioned was done on Kennyboy's stock 408 car with his kind permission
, on a run to 175 mph (laser trap speed) the AIT hit a max of 48 deg (20 deg ambient) as shown on a Hammer. How your AIT's remain so favourable with a stock I/C in light of your serious tuning is a marvel!!
Hope you can make it to v-max next year
Would be great to see what AIT numbers you get via the OBD from the ecu using a Hammer.
The AIT test TB mentioned was done on Kennyboy's stock 408 car with his kind permission
, on a run to 175 mph (laser trap speed) the AIT hit a max of 48 deg (20 deg ambient) as shown on a Hammer. How your AIT's remain so favourable with a stock I/C in light of your serious tuning is a marvel!!Hope you can make it to v-max next year
09-18-2007, 11:46 AM
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here are my temp measurements
at that time I used aux channels for temps to save OBD's low bandwith to other channels.
Those thermocouples are quite reliable even that intake sensor messed up when I changed from 1st to 2nd
09-18-2007, 05:56 PM
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TB and other IC IAT related people
Important "IAT update":
I checked today that thermocouple's values to OBD's values..
I made 3 tests where I accelerated from 100 to 250.
That thermocouple showed first 7 degree less than OBD at 250,
then two times 10 degree less than OBD at 250.
So when I hit that 317km/h at airport and "IAT" was only 45..
that could mean about 55 degree in real ECU IAT.
And I also checked that 700hp rated Ford lightening MAF's voltage values when acceleration with 5th gear from 100 to 250 and it was what I suspected...
5.07 Volts
So when driving same RPM with 6th gear that will be much more overvoltage.. So I have still that MAF problem and that caused "slow" acceleration from 290 to 317.. But on market, there are also bigger than that Ford Lighting MAF, like those Granatelli's "Big Air" MAFs, for example model 2400 (kg/h), which they advertise to be 650rwhp, should be enough for me at this time..I'll try that next..
Important "IAT update":
I checked today that thermocouple's values to OBD's values..
I made 3 tests where I accelerated from 100 to 250.
That thermocouple showed first 7 degree less than OBD at 250,
then two times 10 degree less than OBD at 250.
So when I hit that 317km/h at airport and "IAT" was only 45..
that could mean about 55 degree in real ECU IAT.
And I also checked that 700hp rated Ford lightening MAF's voltage values when acceleration with 5th gear from 100 to 250 and it was what I suspected...
5.07 Volts
So when driving same RPM with 6th gear that will be much more overvoltage.. So I have still that MAF problem and that caused "slow" acceleration from 290 to 317.. But on market, there are also bigger than that Ford Lighting MAF, like those Granatelli's "Big Air" MAFs, for example model 2400 (kg/h), which they advertise to be 650rwhp, should be enough for me at this time..I'll try that next..
Last edited by Jussi; 09-18-2007 at 06:15 PM.
09-18-2007, 11:54 PM
#39
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This statement sort of sums up my "Porsche hp" argument and is why there is always debate since some people don't appreciate what Porsche turbo engines are about .......
Unless there is a defect in a component a stock Porsche turbo engine will not break whatever you submit it to...... This is a fundamental reason why many of us have always been drawn to Porsche turbo products.
Certain Tuners attempt to emulate Porsche hp (which also almost definatively means Porsche reliability). In a 3.6l 993tt with the right components around 550hp can have Porsche reliability however the 750NM which accompanies the hp will severely stress the gearbox with 3rd gear failing prematurely.
Going over 550hp and having Porsche style engine reliability is not currently possible but if it is mainly road use then the engine can last a fair time.
Over 600hp is definately way out of Porsche reliability scope with race engine service schedules necessary if the power is exercised on the Autobahn or track.
Above 650hp is by and large rolling the dice IMO and as Jussi points out the owner must take responsibility for how long the engine lasts using his right foot. As far as tuners attempting to emulate Porsche hp/reliability brings to mind the RS Tuning 687hp/900NM 996/7tt engine which has such a level of componentry that it costs $150K !!!
I was talking with a Porsche racing pal who occasionally brings out "The Destroyer" for multi marque races. "The Destroyer" is a racing 993GT2 EVO with an RS Tuning Secan motor of around 630hp/820NM. Early in the car's life he thought he would save some money and not carry out the Porsche recommended maintenance at 20hrs -the relevant components failed in the very next outing $$$$$ ! We were talking recently and he was saying how it eats 3rd gear with such regularity that he had to run virtually a whole race going 2nd to 4th after 3rd died again......OK I accept that this is a racing anecdote but the point is these hp/tq levels are at the limit for these engines......
935racer I'm sure could add some valuable insight into reliability over 600hp
Unless there is a defect in a component a stock Porsche turbo engine will not break whatever you submit it to...... This is a fundamental reason why many of us have always been drawn to Porsche turbo products.
Certain Tuners attempt to emulate Porsche hp (which also almost definatively means Porsche reliability). In a 3.6l 993tt with the right components around 550hp can have Porsche reliability however the 750NM which accompanies the hp will severely stress the gearbox with 3rd gear failing prematurely.
Going over 550hp and having Porsche style engine reliability is not currently possible but if it is mainly road use then the engine can last a fair time.
Over 600hp is definately way out of Porsche reliability scope with race engine service schedules necessary if the power is exercised on the Autobahn or track.
Above 650hp is by and large rolling the dice IMO and as Jussi points out the owner must take responsibility for how long the engine lasts using his right foot. As far as tuners attempting to emulate Porsche hp/reliability brings to mind the RS Tuning 687hp/900NM 996/7tt engine which has such a level of componentry that it costs $150K !!!
I was talking with a Porsche racing pal who occasionally brings out "The Destroyer" for multi marque races. "The Destroyer" is a racing 993GT2 EVO with an RS Tuning Secan motor of around 630hp/820NM. Early in the car's life he thought he would save some money and not carry out the Porsche recommended maintenance at 20hrs -the relevant components failed in the very next outing $$$$$ ! We were talking recently and he was saying how it eats 3rd gear with such regularity that he had to run virtually a whole race going 2nd to 4th after 3rd died again......OK I accept that this is a racing anecdote but the point is these hp/tq levels are at the limit for these engines......
935racer I'm sure could add some valuable insight into reliability over 600hp
Just read the post and thought I'd add my $.02 on reliability. I had over 10,000 track miles on a modified 3.6 that dyno'd around 550hp and I generally agree with your conclusions on levels of hp and reliability. However, the failure items were the air cooled heads loosing their hardness from the heat, thereby causing leakage. More hp, more boost, more heat.
Note that that Porsche Motorsports recommeded a top end rebuild at 40 hours for the 993 gT2's. Compared to 24 hours for the NA motors. Likewise the 997 gT3 race cars are at teardown with 30 race hours. I seriously doubt that the CGT's in race trim would excede a recommeded rebuild at over 40 hours. But we'll never know becasue they never raced it. Turbo power is smooth power compared to the shock loads that hammer internals in a high reving NA engine.
Porsche also recommends not racing any engine with over 100 hours regardless of the number of rebuilds.
09-19-2007, 07:04 PM
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Things are coming to be clear now..
so I had that MAF problem again which caused wrong AFR ratio and thus losing much power(130kW!) at 290km/h to 317.
See picture of more accurate analysis
What do you thing? TB, Jean, others? And don't say that it was IAT problem because it wasn't
so I had that MAF problem again which caused wrong AFR ratio and thus losing much power(130kW!) at 290km/h to 317.
See picture of more accurate analysis
What do you thing? TB, Jean, others? And don't say that it was IAT problem because it wasn't
09-20-2007, 02:34 AM
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Why would you care?
Guess you won't go over 290kph too often neither on track nor on the street.
So keep your setup where it is. An even bigger MAF will not better the all day driveability of the car.
I know you want the perfect tune but maybe think about it more pragmatical.
Guess you won't go over 290kph too often neither on track nor on the street.
So keep your setup where it is. An even bigger MAF will not better the all day driveability of the car.
I know you want the perfect tune but maybe think about it more pragmatical.
09-20-2007, 03:36 AM
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Why would you care?
Guess you won't go over 290kph too often neither on track nor on the street.
So keep your setup where it is. An even bigger MAF will not better the all day driveability of the car.
I know you want the perfect tune but maybe think about it more pragmatical.
Guess you won't go over 290kph too often neither on track nor on the street.
So keep your setup where it is. An even bigger MAF will not better the all day driveability of the car.
I know you want the perfect tune but maybe think about it more pragmatical.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...0_Data.pdf.pdf
09-20-2007, 06:07 AM
#43
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Jussi
Thanks for sharing the graph -fascinating
To your question: The drop after ~15s from 500-480KW does look like IAT causing timing retard (although that is still amazing acceleration) this is normal even for a stock 993tt engine, the one MOD tested had IAT of 48DegC at ~175mph with stock I/C so will have had some timing pull and would be below its maximum 408PS rating so I wouldn't be over upset about that.
What happens later looks a little more serious, can you keep us updated with what you find ?
Getting maximum speed to reveal "Porsche hp" is going to be very difficult at the boost levels you are running -personally I am with Stummel, 300kph is plenty fast enough - but watching you attempt to push further is very interesting.
Thanks for sharing the graph -fascinating
To your question: The drop after ~15s from 500-480KW does look like IAT causing timing retard (although that is still amazing acceleration) this is normal even for a stock 993tt engine, the one MOD tested had IAT of 48DegC at ~175mph with stock I/C so will have had some timing pull and would be below its maximum 408PS rating so I wouldn't be over upset about that.
What happens later looks a little more serious, can you keep us updated with what you find ?
Getting maximum speed to reveal "Porsche hp" is going to be very difficult at the boost levels you are running -personally I am with Stummel, 300kph is plenty fast enough - but watching you attempt to push further is very interesting.
09-24-2007, 01:25 AM
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Note that that Porsche Motorsports recommeded a top end rebuild at 40 hours for the 993 gT2's. Compared to 24 hours for the NA motors. Likewise the 997 gT3 race cars are at teardown with 30 race hours. I seriously doubt that the CGT's in race trim would excede a recommeded rebuild at over 40 hours. But we'll never know becasue they never raced it. Turbo power is smooth power compared to the shock loads that hammer internals in a high reving NA engine.
Porsche also recommends not racing any engine with over 100 hours regardless of the number of rebuilds.
After approx. 4 hours of race: Check compression, check spark plugs and replace, valve timing.
After 12 hours of racing: Recommended a complete overhaul of the engine.
You need to add to the above practice sessions.
The transmission needs to be completely overhauled after 30 hours of racing.
Cheers
Jean
