Jean

Droops 83, The ECU was the TAG ECU and as you say, has been replaced with a Bosch Motronic ECU, I know JJayB here has done the conversion.

While the upsides are quite a few with the Bosch setup, the downside lies with not having different programs on the Bosch ECU and, I guess, not having knock sensors. I am sure the TAG ECU had different programs for race vs pump fuel, especially when run in CA with 91 octane. The Bosch will have one map for all sorts of fuel, timing, fuel and boost, top performance will be impacted for sure, since they will need to tune for lower fuel ratings..

Painful to look at those heads I cannot see myself running anything less than 100 octane on the track even at less than 1 Bar.

C.J. Ichiban

jean,
i think they actually tune two different ecu's for their cars, and provide them both. you get to pick lower hp for crap gas and high hp on the sticky icky high octane

Jean

C.J.
Interesting, so how do they switch between programs, do they have a switch button?

C.J. Ichiban

no they have two different ecus. one goes in your pocket (so to say) and you switch them like you would switch dvds or something. I don't know what that does for the engine to switch them out continually, but you get a 570+hp around town Ecu and you get a 630 race gas ecu. I don't know what the dyno shows but they're blindingly fast.

C.J. Ichiban

I'm curious to see what droops and Kevin have to recommend for those who've got them and don't want that result from the picture on the last page...prevention?

Jean

That is not an ideal situation for sure. Swapping ECUs does take some time since you have to remove the seat, unless you have placed the box somewhere else.

There are easier solutions out there (via a simple swith button on the dashboard) that have been used for years by some tuners, I wonder why they did not do it that way.

Yes the Andial cars certainly are very fast. The Bosch change will be safer for situations like the one posted here. Good to see they (Andial) are still around.

Thanks

Acropora

Actually after drilling out the studs I would swap ECU's w/o removing the stock seat back when running kevin's old stage 2. Hopefully it's just as easy now; haven't looked there since switching to the protomotive ecu. Just got an LM-1 for wot calibration. Looking for brembros or something as the stock rotors aren't keeping up.

C.J. Ichiban

jean- a while back i did see one of their cars had a mystery toggle switch next to the sunroof button that looked like this- and had 2 tiny lights, one red, one green

I up position
o neutral position
II down position

Droops83

Our customer w/ the 3.8tt and the TAG ECU does have a rocker switch on his center console to switch between race gas and pump gas maps. He claims he was running 100 octane at the track when he blew the engine, and we could smell race gas when the car was towed in. But I know that he said several years back he accidentally ran the race gas map with pump gas in the tank and blew the engine, so Andial has already rebuilt it once! I will try and find out more specifics about the Bosch ECU, I know that Andial said he will lose about 50 peak hp from the race gas map but it will be safer on pump gas and help it pass smog to boot.

Kevin, thanks for your insight. I was wondering the same thing, the plugs don't look like there was severe detonation, but what besides detonation would blow chunks out of the heads/barrels like that? Simply too much pressure in the cylinder for the thin sealing area? I am indirectly quoting Andial when they say the old TAG ECU is the main culprit, apparently they had 1 or 2 other 3.8tt engines do the same thing. I have not looked closely at the pistons yet, I pulled the engine out and tore it down to the longblock for practice (I am but the lowly apprentice!), but our maestro Henry took over for the actual build and pulled the engine apart, and he has been the one dealing w/ Andial. I know that he says blowing holes in 3.8 turbo engines is pretty common, Henry said we have built a few in the past and the same thing happened to one of em. I have read Kevin's posts on welding the heads and I think that is a good idea and wonder why Andial did not do this themselves. I know they built all kinds of 935s back in the day and apparently they welded the heads on those. I guess they didn't figure 3.8tt owners would track their cars? Anyway we have been super busy lately and the 3.8 has been kinda placed on the backburner while we gather parts and finish the other 2 engines that are in line in front of it. I will try and get more pics and find out more info, as I'm sure everyone here would be interested to find out more.

---

Chris Andropoulos
Schneider Autohaus
Santa Barbara, CA

Geoffrey

If there was any detonation it will show up with cracked piston rings first, cracked piston ring lands second, and of course the tell tale sign on the sparkplug. I'd agree with Kevin that it looks like classic signs of head lifting which may or may not have been accompanied by a lean mixture. Looking at the cylinder head on the right, it looks to have been running rich or burning oil given the black spark plug.

I question the fact that the TAG engine management system is the problem but suggest that it might be the programming of the MAPs in the TAG engine management system that could be a problem.

JJayB

Andial did weld the heads on every 3.8 I've seen that they built. They not only recommded it, they insisted.

I've only seen one of their 3.8 gernade, and it was a combination of running 94 octane on high boost and continue to run the motor after a fan belt broke. They are very concerned if one of their engines fail. So I'm somewhat suprised
that there are posts that make it sound like this is a common thing. Its not. The goal of the upgrade was that any competent porsche tech could work on the car. Thats why most of the parts are available from porsche, not someone who lacks a parts network. Secondly, Andial used a programable Thielert ecu not a TAG. Thielet was a dual progam that you could run two maps (high and low boost) and with a switch, change the program. The Thielert was used by many race teams (Roock) and when they stopped racing the 993GT2 the supply of parts and development stopped. Further, emission regulations made it impossible for the high boost program to pass smog in many states. Since many states levy penalties for modifying a car that doesn't pass smog, Andial choose to update the ecu.

Andial contracted with FVD to build a replacement ecu, which solved emission and drivability issues. I have one it drives like a stocker, but it doesn't pull like the high boost Thielert, as it 580hp vs 630hp. I'm told there is a 600 hp box now available. Andial tells every customer do not use high boost unless you've got 100 octane fuel!
When I see catostrophic engine failures, I like many, want to know why. Remeber the factory GT2 (993) race engine was suppose to be rebuilt after 40 race hours. For most street cars they will never see this kind of abuse.
However, human error, wrong fuel and too much boost can cause these failures to occure.

I'm curious whether this was the Porsche Motorsports 3.8 pistons or the Mahle 3.8 which didn't require one to machine the spigots?

Jimmy
993tt 3.8 twin plug, with road hugging all-wheel drive
A bunch of AMG's

Kevin

Andial might have welded heads, and I hope that these heads were welded. However, they didn't install flame rings.. Nothing physically locks the head to prevent them from moving. Once you breach the gap between the head and cylinder you will KISS you AFR's goodbye.. The cylinder fueling goes lean due to the ability to inject outside air. Added with the fuel mixture that does get past the open valve and you have a plasma torch..

If these engines were street engines turned race track duty, scheduled overhauls must be put in effect to prevent this damage.

Jean

I stand corrected, you had told me this before a few times, age is taking its toll. I like you, would be surprised to see so many of those Andial 3.8 ltrs go bang, unless there is a mass conspiracy....or people saving pennies on fuel.......

TB993tt

It was the original Ruf CTR 2 which ran TAG

Droops83

Well the heads on our customer's car sure were not welded. I will take some pictures. And once again it is Andial themselves who are saying that the Theilert (thanks JjayB, I knew it was a German name that started w/ a T!) ECU was most likely the root of the problem and that it had happened before on a couple other engines. I think they said 2 others out of a total of 25 3.8tts they've built. I'm pretty sure our head tech emailed them the pictures, many more than I had space to post here, and sent the heads to them for analysis.

But, Kevin and Geoffry's synopsies sound right on. I seem to remember our head tech saying something like that, but then Andial was talking about the ECU so I was a bit confused. Anyway I will try and find out as much as I can and get more pics up.

I have not meant to totally hijack the thread about Andial's partial closure, but I think that it is relevant and highlights that fact that Andial is still very much around in a tech support/parts capacity and their response time and service have been great, we already have the new cylinders and ECU. We'll see how this turns out . . . .

---

Chris Andropoulos
Schneider Autohaus
Santa Barbara, CA