red993tt

Sony-1 and Jean, seems like you both have powerful car and yet have different set ups. Hope to get some pointer from you guys.
BrendanC ,Looks like me you are in the same boat. I was hoping you can share something about AEM.

Laune

Hi,

I am working on a M600 installation to a 964 C4. The plan for the configuration is to:
- use original sensors
- build a wire set to replace the original ECU
- remove the original air flow meter, install a large cone K&N
- install a new TPS, 0-5V
- replace original injectors with new balanced 380cc Bosch injectors
- use all original ignition equipment, control the ignition maps with Motec

A basic Motec fuel and ignition map would really help me get started. Anyone willing to send me a file? If you don't have the M600/800 maps, then a M48 will also help me a lot (I can convert it to M600)?
Thanks!!!!!!

Jyrki Laune,
Finland

jyrki_laune@hotmail.com

biiig-hp

????????? weird response. why not share your views for all to gain insight. Why hide behind pm's and e-mail? I for one would love a reason not to need to spend the money on an expensive stand alone system, but to this day I have not heard enough convincing evidence.

Geoffrey

Jyrki

I would be very careful just loading any base file, particularly one for the MoTeC Mx00 series of ECUs since the channel assignments are are very flexible and are user defined. You'd need to ensure that the channel assignments, and then all of the compensation tables are reset for your specific application.

red993tt

Excellent. Love to hear more about your progress.

Konstantin

To make it short I know Geoffrey only through Rennlist amd never meet him in person but what he says is right.
It doesnt matter if it is about Motec and reliablity (there is a reason why most of the race teams use them and not the other cheaper units) Or Autronic and their "customer Service" or keep the Motronic and go to Todd for a street driven car.

If you do not want to spent the money on Motec and the Motronic is not good enough for you I would go to DTA much cheaper than the Autronic and I do not know if Autronic can do anything better than the DTA.

what ever you do, get first customer support. This is the most important thing.

Konstantin

Laune

Geoffrey,
Thanks for your insight. Do you think that with basic fuel and ignition maps + description of channel assignments for this particular basic map, I could work out the basic maps for my application. I do have a friend very experienced with Motec doing the mapping on dyno.
I am only looking for some very basic maps to get the engine running without fouling the plugs, backfiring or similar problems. Also some guidelines for the cold start etc would help a lot.

Thanks,
Jyrki

Geoffrey

Jyrki,

You first need to determine the channel assignments for all of the engine sensors and other sensors if you have them

You then need to calibrate the sensors by using either a MoTeC default calibration, or by creating your own.

You need to set the general settings in the ECU software for injector type, battery compensation table, cam/crank trigger and number of teeth, or in your case, 60-2 missing tooth mode. You need to set the ignition output for number of coils and dwell time (inductive ignition). You need to set the load type and determine if you want to use barometric compensation (you do!). You need to set the RPM and load breakpoints.

You can then begin to build the wire harness, making sure you are using good tefzal wire and ensure that the ref and sync wires are 3 wire shielded wire to help avoid noise.

Once the harness is built, you need to test the harness with the ECU and software to ensure the sensors are reading properly.

From there you need to ensure that you know the waveform any mag sensor produces, in this case the crank position sensor. Is it rising or is it falling? If you have it backwards, the ECU will retard timing as the engine RPM increases because you've told the ECU to trigger off of the wrong edge and it is moving with time. An oscilloscope is the best tool to determine this.

You need to determine the Crank Index Position (CRIP) this is the relationship between the cam trigger and the crank trigger in relation to TDC#1. In your case, depending on which way you wire the crank position sensor it will be in the 60-80 degree range. This is like moving the distributor back and forth in an old carburated envirionment. You need to ensure the CRIP is correct or the engine will not be timed properly and it may not start and if it does, it may destroy itself if you boost it.

All of the above needs to be done before the engine is even fired and is specific to each engine configuration. From there you can begin to work with the fuel and ignition tables. You need to install an Air Temp compensation table that is correct, you need to set some basic acceleration enrichments, you need to set some engine temp compensations and ensure there is at least a default value in for cold start.

I would start with the MoTeC default file that comes with the software and write it specifically for your application. If you have different RPM and load breakpoints, and/or different load methods from a file you are copying the table from, it will import it into the wrong site.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing this on your own, I'm just trying to caution you as to the detail that is required to set up the software properly so you don't run into issues later and get frustrated.

Laune

Geoffrey,

Thanks for your help. Please see my comments below.
Basically what I am looking for is the basic fuel and ignition maps, including the cold start maps. These files can be complete or partial Motec maps, or what would also work, the original Motronic maps downloaded from the original ECU. We can decode and convert the original maps into Motec!
Out of all these maps the most helpful would be the ignition maps!
Anyone with access to either Motec or Motronic maps for a 911 3.6 engine, 964 or 993???


>You first need to determine the channel assignments for all of the engine sensors and other sensors if you have them

Done, added throttle position sensor (TPS). We are using TPS for the main load calculation, and barometric compensation just for compensations. Barometric compensation MAP is tested from sea level to 2000 meters. We also use inlet manifold pressure as a second load table. Channel assigment no problem.


>You then need to calibrate the sensors by using either a MoTeC default calibration, or by creating your own.

Sensor calibration ok. All are standard sensors will be used, except lambda is changed to wide band type. I´m using Motec PLM with Bosch LSU11 sensor.


>You need to set the general settings in the ECU software for injector type, battery compensation table, cam/crank trigger and number of teeth, or in your case, 60-2 missing tooth mode. You need to set the ignition output for number of coils and dwell time (inductive ignition). You need to set the load type and determine if you want to use barometric compensation (you do!). You need to set the RPM and load breakpoints.

All general setup parameters ok. For dwell time we will use rising ("rising a little compared to standard"), because the coil is quite slow and needs a little more charge time in high revs to work well.


>You can then begin to build the wire harness, making sure you are using good tefzal wire and ensure that the ref and sync wires are 3 wire shielded wire to help avoid noise.

Wiring loom almost ready, wire is specsed raychem wire, can´t remember type. Used in many WRC and racing cars. Also signals from sensors are filtered to avoid wrong noises. Wire sizes are from 0,3 to 0,75 mm2 depending of used current.


>Once the harness is built, you need to test the harness with the ECU and software to ensure the sensors are reading properly.

We are doing that after we get all needed information.


>From there you need to ensure that you know the waveform any mag sensor produces, in this case the crank position sensor. Is it rising or is it falling? If you have it backwards, the ECU will retard timing as the engine RPM increases because you've told the ECU to trigger off of the wrong edge and it is moving with time. An oscilloscope is the best tool to determine this.

Ok, from sensor setup ref/sync setup parameters, you can choose if it is rising or falling, also filters avoid wrong noises can be specsed here.


>You need to determine the Crank Index Position (CRIP) this is the relationship between the cam trigger and the crank trigger in relation to TDC#1. In your case, depending on which way you wire the crank position sensor it will be in the 60-80 degree range. This is like moving the distributor back and forth in an old carburated envirionment. You need to ensure the CRIP is correct or the engine will not be timed properly and it may not start and if it does, it may destroy itself if you boost it.

We will do finetuning in first start. Before the first start the mainparameters and CRIP are easy to find out by using Motec ref/sync calculator software, that helps a lot in finding out the right parameters when triggers are changed. Non-linear triggerwheels need special mode but can be made in motec Australia.


>All of the above needs to be done before the engine is even fired and is specific to each engine configuration. From there you can begin to work with the fuel and ignition tables. You need to install an Air Temp compensation table that is correct, you need to set some basic acceleration enrichments, you need to set some engine temp compensations and ensure there is at least a default value in for cold start.

And much more have to be done before start, thats the reason why I am looking for some basic fuel and ignition tables. We can also decode the original Porsche Motronic file to get all this information, but that takes extra work. Accel and decell enrichments should be tuned with wide band lambda and logging otherways it´s not even close.


>I would start with the MoTeC default file that comes with the software and write it specifically for your application. If you have different RPM and load breakpoints, and/or different load methods from a file you are copying the table from, it will import it into the wrong site.
I'm not trying to discourage you from doing this on your own, I'm just trying to caution you as to the detail that is required to set up the software properly so you don't run into issues later and get frustrated.

No problem I´m getting help from people who have worked to Motec and who are tuning cars with Motec every day. They just asked if it would be possible to get some fuel and ignition start/basic maps to get the basic tuning done faster and easier. These people are very experienced with Motec, it's just the Porsche-6 specific maps that we don't have.

Thanks a lot,
Jyrki Laune

Geoffrey

Jyrki,

Sounds like you are on the right track then. The PLM uses either a NTK or a Bosch LSU-4/4.2 sensor. You don't want to be using the LSM-11 sensor because it is old, not as robust as the newer sensors, and unsupported by the PLM. You'll also need to define the Lambda channel to off or narrowband input if you use the PLM. You'll then define the output channel of the PLM to output narrowband communication stream and it will deliver the wideband information seamlessly over the narrowband communications stream. Alternatively, you can run the LSU or NTK sensor directly to the M600 since it has wideband support built in as long as you have the options enabled.

For the ignition, there is only the edge it will trigger on (falling for inductive), the dwell the coil needs, and the delay time which is the difference in time between the trigger, and the actual coil event. I'm not sure what you mean by rising dwell? Are you using a user defined dwell table? If you are using the factory ignition system, you'll need to reduce the dwell as the RPM goes up since there is not enough time to fully charge the coil over about 6000rpm and if you run the coil at 100% duty cycle, it will heat up and burn out. So you'd use the user defined dwell table to reduce the dwell to reduce the coil duty cycle. It will also reduce the ignition energy available.

Yup, you'll need to set the filter levels as well as the voltage levels for the ref mag sensor.

I always tune the accell enrichments using a user defined table, however, if you use the defaults, it still works very well without the user defined table. If your guys have experience with MoTeC, then they should have no problem writing a map from scratch since you'll be on the dyno anyway. I'm not trying to be difficut, I just don't have one from a stock 964/993 N/A engine to give you.

sonny1

Jyrki,
I got many Motec maps for differnt Porsche applications, lots for 993TT,993 single turbo,NA. 996, etc.,kind regards, let me know if I can be of some help.,Sonny.

Jean

Talk about a great forum!

Laune

Sonny,
that sounds great!!! I'm looking for 964 NA maps - I guess 993 NA maps would also give me a good starting point. I will use the M600, but if you have M48 maps. we can convert them.
The basic map will be used, along with the guidelines listed in this thread above, to help us get the engine started and running. Cold start, warm up fuel maps, and "light load" ignition maps might get used as is?
Naturally we will run it on the dyno to fine tune all the maps.
Thanks!!!

Jyrki Laune
jyrki_laune@hotmail.com

sonny1

I will send them to your e-mail, I got NA maps, for 993's, using m48 & m600,I got them for single throtle and multiple throtles, which ones would you like? let me know.,kind regards,Sonny.

A.Wayne

Hello All,
I would like to address a few items and misstatements that has arisen due to this post .

Hello BrendanC ,
In response to your customer service support statement, I'm not sure you have been looking in the right place for info regarding such, We have supported DTA systems now, on going for 6 Yrs. All ECU's are fully factory warrantied for 2 years and 5 years on wire harness's. Our setups offer plug and play software ( for those who want to roll their own) applications for 911, 993 and 996 with a level of ease and sophistication of operation, not yet offered in the corners you are currently looking.

As far as PRO 8 Vs Motronic on a 993 , our power and drivability is better hands down no contest ,of course there is no OBD 2 functions , but if that is what is needed a modded Motronic is the only way to go.

If power with better than factory drivabilty is what is needed for street or race applications we have offered this for years. We have fully supported and produced results in SCCA , PCA , PBOC , FIA , BRDC to name a few , and have supported customers in the US, SO and central. America and as far away as Japan , taiwan etc. for both race and street.

While most if not all of the previously mentioned systems and individuals on this post will or could provide the results everyone here has been discussing, i just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions regarding the DTA systems and how it would work in a Porsche related environment.

regards
Wayne Seixas
TPG
www.tpgproducts.com