4.0 Ltr. upgrade?
05-18-2004, 01:15 PM
#1
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4.0 Ltr. upgrade?
Has anyone experienced a 4.0 Ltr P&C upgrade on our engines? I know of one European tuner using it with success and has been tested to up to 2.5 Bar boost. If this is reliable and feasible, it would be a great improvement in efficiency. I would like to go this route however worried that it has not been sufficiently tested.
This upgrade should give great low end torque with an 8.2-8.75 compression , helping offset the turbo lag of a K26 or K27 that could be fitted, to make a great performance street car. Deadly combination!!
Of course this is assuming that head work reinforcement needs to be done, including positive lock sealing and twin plug...and definitely stronger rods, I/C oil pump etc.., maybe a GT3 crank as well?
Am I mumbling?
Any views would be appreciated, I am sure at least one of Rennlist tuners/sponsors have some experience with this?
Thanks. Jean
This upgrade should give great low end torque with an 8.2-8.75 compression , helping offset the turbo lag of a K26 or K27 that could be fitted, to make a great performance street car. Deadly combination!!
Of course this is assuming that head work reinforcement needs to be done, including positive lock sealing and twin plug...and definitely stronger rods, I/C oil pump etc.., maybe a GT3 crank as well?
Am I mumbling?
Any views would be appreciated, I am sure at least one of Rennlist tuners/sponsors have some experience with this?
Thanks. Jean
05-18-2004, 02:25 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
I know nothing of any of this, but just want to say... yipes. It sounds fantastic, and I'd love to hear from you if you try out some or all of your ideas. 4.0 liters... gadzooks. Do it!
05-18-2004, 02:30 PM
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Hi Jean
I too have been looking into the feasibility study of the 4Ltr Kits. There is a Tuning Company here in the UK called BS Motorsport who have been developing such a kit.
apparently their test mule is a 993 GT2 which is apparently good for a reliable 800BHP...sorry did I stutter.....800BHP
My questions to the engineer I spoke to was about most of the things you mention. He's honest suggestion was to basically dump everything but the crank cases!
Start by using a GT3 crank, Carillo titanium Rods, their own 4Ltr (102mm) Cylinders and their own 102mm Forged Pistons (Made by Weisco apparently!) Plus I assume larger Intercooler and Turbos, Injectors etc
He didn't go into to much detail as to the head's used other than they were twin plug and extensively modified with 42mm and 52mm Valves. (I think they were the sizes he mentioned, seem a little too big to me)
So, Big money then....
I also asked about the reliability of the 4WD system with such horse power and he agreed that 600BHP was about the Maximum before adding cooling etc. and that even then 650BHP is about the max and then he said that he would probably ditch the front diff all together...??? kinda defeats the object of a 4WD car don't you think?
Anyway....you've got me babbling on now.
I decided that if this type of upgrade was to be performed properly it was going to take a serious amount of money. It was going to take a pretty much brand new engine and turbos, not to mention headers and exhausts etc.
The more you move in one direction, the more you move away from the 993TT's Trump card... Its drivability.
More power means upgraded chassis, means upgraded brakes, means Completely revised Intake system, means more, more, more.
I eventually came to the conclusion that it was just not worth going that exteme unless I wanted to move towards running on the track, and where's the fun in nipping down to the local shop for some milk . In your wife's Fiat UNO. NOT
Anyway, I would also like to hear if anyone else has looked into any of this too.
Until then I suppose 500-550BHP real horses will just have to do.
I too have been looking into the feasibility study of the 4Ltr Kits. There is a Tuning Company here in the UK called BS Motorsport who have been developing such a kit.
apparently their test mule is a 993 GT2 which is apparently good for a reliable 800BHP...sorry did I stutter.....800BHP
My questions to the engineer I spoke to was about most of the things you mention. He's honest suggestion was to basically dump everything but the crank cases!
Start by using a GT3 crank, Carillo titanium Rods, their own 4Ltr (102mm) Cylinders and their own 102mm Forged Pistons (Made by Weisco apparently!) Plus I assume larger Intercooler and Turbos, Injectors etc
He didn't go into to much detail as to the head's used other than they were twin plug and extensively modified with 42mm and 52mm Valves. (I think they were the sizes he mentioned, seem a little too big to me)
So, Big money then....
I also asked about the reliability of the 4WD system with such horse power and he agreed that 600BHP was about the Maximum before adding cooling etc. and that even then 650BHP is about the max and then he said that he would probably ditch the front diff all together...??? kinda defeats the object of a 4WD car don't you think?
Anyway....you've got me babbling on now.
I decided that if this type of upgrade was to be performed properly it was going to take a serious amount of money. It was going to take a pretty much brand new engine and turbos, not to mention headers and exhausts etc.
The more you move in one direction, the more you move away from the 993TT's Trump card... Its drivability.
More power means upgraded chassis, means upgraded brakes, means Completely revised Intake system, means more, more, more.
I eventually came to the conclusion that it was just not worth going that exteme unless I wanted to move towards running on the track, and where's the fun in nipping down to the local shop for some milk
. In your wife's Fiat UNO. NOTAnyway, I would also like to hear if anyone else has looked into any of this too.
Until then I suppose 500-550BHP real horses will just have to do.
05-19-2004, 04:32 AM
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Steve, Jim
Thank you for the encouragement.
I agree this is an expensive "hobby", I will end up selling my beautiful 965 turbo to fund it. I had already made up my mind about going all the way with internal modifications, therefore a 4.0 Ltr upgrade will not be an overkill.
Neil Bainbridge (BSMotorsport) uses his own heads which are stronger than stock ones (optional), the valves are 51.5 and 43.5mm a quite common upgrade, and then obviously all the Conrods, ARP fasteners, screw-in liners sealed to the heads and (optional) GT3 crank and oil pump.. etc. The key is in the work performed in the heads and intake. You can fab headers quite cheaply, as well as a great I/C from a Spearco core. Maybe add to that a couple of Kevin's K27 HF or one his special hybrids..
I removed and dismantled the engine myself ($$$), only the case is still sealed and everything is packed and ready to be shipped somewhere, where? I don't know
I will sell whatever I can, the engine had only 15k miles on it.
If you do not have radical cams, radical flywheel/clutch or radical ECU, I do not think the 4.0 Ltr will affect daily drivability, it should actually improve low end torque, a properly tuned aftermarket ECU and correct turbo should take care of balancing a smooth hp delivery.
The car and chassis are being reinforced (and lightened ) and I will upgrade suspension and brakes. Daily usage will be at a modest 0.8 Bar and only seldom I will test those 600 hp. Below is a pic of the current status..(this was a silver 993TT with RUF body Kit!!)
Obviously all the above is IMHO, I am not an expert at all..I would love to hear from one of Rennlist experts here.. Please chime in.
Thank you for the encouragement.
I agree this is an expensive "hobby", I will end up selling my beautiful 965 turbo to fund it. I had already made up my mind about going all the way with internal modifications, therefore a 4.0 Ltr upgrade will not be an overkill.
Neil Bainbridge (BSMotorsport) uses his own heads which are stronger than stock ones (optional), the valves are 51.5 and 43.5mm a quite common upgrade, and then obviously all the Conrods, ARP fasteners, screw-in liners sealed to the heads and (optional) GT3 crank and oil pump.. etc. The key is in the work performed in the heads and intake. You can fab headers quite cheaply, as well as a great I/C from a Spearco core. Maybe add to that a couple of Kevin's K27 HF or one his special hybrids..
I removed and dismantled the engine myself ($$$), only the case is still sealed and everything is packed and ready to be shipped somewhere, where? I don't know
I will sell whatever I can, the engine had only 15k miles on it.
If you do not have radical cams, radical flywheel/clutch or radical ECU, I do not think the 4.0 Ltr will affect daily drivability, it should actually improve low end torque, a properly tuned aftermarket ECU and correct turbo should take care of balancing a smooth hp delivery.
The car and chassis are being reinforced (and lightened
) and I will upgrade suspension and brakes. Daily usage will be at a modest 0.8 Bar and only seldom I will test those 600 hp. Below is a pic of the current status..(this was a silver 993TT with RUF body Kit!!)Obviously all the above is IMHO, I am not an expert at all..I would love to hear from one of Rennlist experts here.. Please chime in.
05-19-2004, 12:39 PM
#5
Going 4 litres sounds really interesting. Jean, care to list down the parts you want to sell from your 94 3.6 turbo? I hear that CMW racing makes these 4 litre kits too.
05-19-2004, 02:13 PM
#6
Originally posted by mjims
I also asked about the reliability of the 4WD system with such horse power and he agreed that 600BHP was about the Maximum before adding cooling etc. and that even then 650BHP is about the max and then he said that he would probably ditch the front diff all together...??? kinda defeats the object of a 4WD car don't you think?
I also asked about the reliability of the 4WD system with such horse power and he agreed that 600BHP was about the Maximum before adding cooling etc. and that even then 650BHP is about the max and then he said that he would probably ditch the front diff all together...??? kinda defeats the object of a 4WD car don't you think?
/E
05-20-2004, 01:20 AM
#7
Jean,
i looked into this too. But upon information supplied to me, I went smaller. 3.2L. I don't have the Torque the bigger engines have, but I hope to get into the Torque RPM's quicker. This will make a quicker car.
A GT3 Crank with 102.00mm Cylinders makes a 3.8L. I think 76.40 X 104.00mm nets 3.9L. To make a true 4.0L I think a stroke change would be required. What I did not like is the extra heat generated and no way of increasing the cooling. The lifespan of these big engines drops dramatically, when used to their potential. Choices, choices. It all came down to getting really good advice and options with real experiences attached. Many will sell you something, and never tell you the pit falls. My advice is to pick your Engine builder, then ask him. If you pick a good Builder, he will know and tell you which way to go. If he knows his stuff, he will give you options and choices. From there you will not be disapointed, as you will know before what to expect. That makes a difference I think.
i looked into this too. But upon information supplied to me, I went smaller. 3.2L. I don't have the Torque the bigger engines have, but I hope to get into the Torque RPM's quicker. This will make a quicker car.
A GT3 Crank with 102.00mm Cylinders makes a 3.8L. I think 76.40 X 104.00mm nets 3.9L. To make a true 4.0L I think a stroke change would be required. What I did not like is the extra heat generated and no way of increasing the cooling. The lifespan of these big engines drops dramatically, when used to their potential. Choices, choices. It all came down to getting really good advice and options with real experiences attached. Many will sell you something, and never tell you the pit falls. My advice is to pick your Engine builder, then ask him. If you pick a good Builder, he will know and tell you which way to go. If he knows his stuff, he will give you options and choices. From there you will not be disapointed, as you will know before what to expect. That makes a difference I think.
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05-20-2004, 02:15 AM
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All in all you'd be better off with the GT3 crank and some 102's and call it good.. With the turbo technology today we don't need to install twin K27 on these engines...
05-20-2004, 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by Sameer
... care to list down the parts you want to sell from your 94 3.6 turbo? I hear that CMW racing makes these 4 litre kits too.
... care to list down the parts you want to sell from your 94 3.6 turbo? I hear that CMW racing makes these 4 litre kits too.
Jim, I will be going for 2WD with fat rear tires as a test.. Funny, my 965 was converted to a 993TT 4WD gearbox and tranny
Simon, you are absolutely right, as usual! I will be choosing the right builder, I am still not decided, Neil is definitely one of the options, however I am doing some research on my own to know what's out there. The Pistons are 102mm, they change the pin location for added stroke and they fit them to an 82mm crankshaft and custom small journal Rods.
For the benefit of the board, the 4.0 Ltr can get you to 600 hp at 1 Bar, at 1.1 Bar you will see 500 ft/lb of torque at 3500 RPM! I still think the right Spearco core will give you the right cooling provided the engine has the right oil cooling and is properly tuned..I might be wrong.
Kevin, thanks for chiming in, you're always straight to the point, I will be contacting you once again for guidance and purchase of the right turbos once I know where I am exactly going.
I would really appreciate hearing from our other gurus for their opinions, I know Steve W., Stephen K., Neil at PD, et Al. Anyone?
Thank you all.
Jean
Last edited by Jean; 05-20-2004 at 04:10 AM.
05-20-2004, 07:02 AM
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Jean
FWIW I know that RS Tuning tested the 4.0 set up in the late 90's, I actually saw the pistons in their CMW boxes at their facility -they didn't rate them, can't remember exactly why but m42racers reasoning sounds credible. I still advocate very careful matching of componentry and very accurate mapping to create what you need. The difference in low end torque between a perfectly mapped 3.6 and a 95% mapped 4.0 will be negligable.
FWIW I know that RS Tuning tested the 4.0 set up in the late 90's, I actually saw the pistons in their CMW boxes at their facility -they didn't rate them, can't remember exactly why but m42racers reasoning sounds credible. I still advocate very careful matching of componentry and very accurate mapping to create what you need. The difference in low end torque between a perfectly mapped 3.6 and a 95% mapped 4.0 will be negligable.
05-20-2004, 11:29 AM
#11
Jean,
Yes off course I remember the article on your car.I have the magazine at home. Have you seen the Andial 3.8 litre conversion on their website? Something worth reading up on.
Yes off course I remember the article on your car.I have the magazine at home. Have you seen the Andial 3.8 litre conversion on their website? Something worth reading up on.
05-21-2004, 01:59 AM
#12
Jean,
I looked long and far to find really good parts, parts that were not the same old catalog parts sold by everyone, for my Red Turbo. Most wanted to sell me same parts and the same concept. CMW was one I looked at. Although they did have some unique parts, the quality was not there. Its hard to compare, but when you see quality, it does stands out from the rest.
I looked long and far to find really good parts, parts that were not the same old catalog parts sold by everyone, for my Red Turbo. Most wanted to sell me same parts and the same concept. CMW was one I looked at. Although they did have some unique parts, the quality was not there. Its hard to compare, but when you see quality, it does stands out from the rest.
