88clbsport

I believe I was unfairly ticketed (a lot to do with my car) in Beverly Hills last week. Since I have seen a lot of interest in the plate cover and photo intersections here is my brief recap of what happened.(with streets for those in So Cal)

Westbound on Burton way, going about 35 when light at Rexford changes. I am in right lane and an Explorer slightly ahead of me in the left lane. I feel we both made it across the line of the intersection when it was still yellow. My beef is the police officer(S) were in a car on opposite side of Rexford and their view was obstructed by the Explorer. Do I have a chance in hell if I fight this? I haven't had a ticket in a couple years and could just take traffic school but am seeking the advice...please help!south si

Terry Adams

I heard (can anyone confirm?) that there was a rule change this year. The old rule was you're ok if the frontmost part of your car enters the intersection box while the light is yellow. I heard there is a new rule that you have to be half way across on yellow. I would guess that red light violation is more points than speeding, so my opinion would be to fight it, on the basis of the position of the police car. A better opinion than mine would be a traffic lawyer's if you feel it's worth it.

88clbsport

Thanks Terry! I am also curious about the law? I know that when people make left turns on yellow there is ALWAYS one car that goes through on red.

Traffic lawyer...never thought about that. I knew there were ones for DUI's etc. but didn't know about specific traffic lawyers!

PeanutinCA

Jason Jason Jason <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

Just kidding! My recent experience if it's worth anything (had my dog on the beach on a particularly foggy day when I couldn't see the surf from the car park)? Get close to the court date, call up 1 or 2 days before and re-schedule, get to the day, my cop never turned up. Pleaded with whoever those people are who discuss the cases before it gets to the judge. Of course I do have a legite need to save for my pending surgical procedure (I hear you can get another inch .... taller that is with Artificial Disk replacement), but this is what I pleaded to her. A potential $250 starting bif for a fine got pleaded out to $27, ended up being worth my time and effort to go? I think you could argue a pretty good case, did the guy in the truck get stung? Argue you could see them past the front of the Explorer not the rear, that indicates your further forward into the intersection?

Only problem I see, cops are never wrong in the eye of the law so you need to confuse them on what day your going in so they don't go in!! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Cheers,
Dylan.

STLPCA

You need to review applicable CA law - it's not a matter of "rules." I did a few minutes of cursory net research & found:

CA Vehicle Code section 21452.
(a) A driver facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal is, by that signal, warned that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be shown immediately thereafter.

Appears clear there is no violation in entering an intersection on a yellow light.

CA Vehicle Code section 21453.
(a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

Also appears clear it is a violation to enter an intersection on a red light.

Thus, even if you entered on the very tail end of a yellow you're OK, even if the light turned red a moment later while you were in the intersection. Perhaps, not smart or good defensive driving, but not illegal.

Now all you need to do is convince a judge that you were right & the cop was wrong. For that, I'd suggest contacting one of what must be a zillion traffic law firms in CA. Likely, you'll pay the lawyer, he'll negotiate a non-points disposition & you'll pay a fine & costs. That's if you want a sure thing. If you like to gamble - go to trial. If you are limited in the # of times you can save points by going to traffic school, I'd save the school for when you really need it - like a biiiig speeding ticket.

Disclaimer: I am not licensed in CA, have no specific knowledge of CA law, am not an expert on anything to do with CA, like some of the people there, and offer the above as just the results of some guy in MO taking what would otherwise be billable time and surfing around the internet. Consult a licensed CA lawyer before taking any action.

Jeff 993TT

[quote]Originally posted by Dan 96C2 St.Louis:
<strong>Disclaimer: I am not licensed in CA, have no specific knowledge of CA law, am not an expert on anything to do with CA, like some of the people there, and offer the above as just the results of some guy in MO taking what would otherwise be billable time and surfing around the internet. Consult a licensed CA lawyer before taking any action.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dan, with a disclaimer like that, you'd make a great lawyer!!

Jeff

dcpmark

A couple of points:

Notwithstanding any changes to the law that I am unaware of, Vehicle Code §§ 21451 and 21453 apply to this type of situation. The front part of your car has to be across the BACK line of the crosswalk, since the crosswalk has been legally defined as part of the intersection. Therefore, if the edge of your front bumper was in the crosswalk when the light turned from yellow to red, there is no violation.

Having said that, if you fought the ticket, and the officer showed up, you would most likely lose. The officer would testify that your front bumper had not crossed into the crosswalk when the light turned red, whether he is right or wrong. You would especially lose if you testified that you "felt" that you had made it, as you stated in your post. Even if you were "certain" that you had already entered the crosswalk, it's your word against his, and more likely than not you will lose.

You have two chances to beat the ticket: 1) plead not guilty and hope that the officer won't show up (unlikely these days, as officers are now paid for their time in court and traffic trials are scheduled around officers' vacations); and 2) convince the judge that he couldn't have seen the front of your car from where he was (pictures, diagrams, etc). The last one might not work if the officer testifies that the Explorer DIDN'T make it or BARELY made it, and since you were slightly behind him, you COULDN'T have made it. Then it wouldn't matter that he couldn't actually see your car.

Good luck!

dcpmark

By the way, just curious......did you have a front license plate on your car when this happened, and were you cited for that as well?

88clbsport

Thanks for all the advice! Good question on the front license plate, it's been a hot topic with a bunch of people in West LA area. NO, didn't have it on and I never will put on in front.

I still don't know whether to fight it. Will probably wait until 5 days prior to the date and send a certified letter. The back of ticket says it must be postmarked no later than 5 days prior to the appearance date. I like Dylan's ideas and Dan...you are the man! I am going to use some of your points as well. Don't worry, your disclaimer was not needed.

ZCAT3

Hi Jason -

My advice would be to suck it up and go to traffic school - even if you are sure you are right. I am a lawyer, but not a "traffic lawyer." As a former federal prosecutor, I can assure you that the courts will always defer to our law enforcement personnel. Unless you have an independent witness, the scenario presented above will likely take place. The officer will say that he saw you enter the intersection after the light turned and the case is over. Unless the law has changed, once you opt to go to court you lose the right to choose traffic school. Up here in the SF Bay Area you can do traffic school on the web. A few hours and you are done.

P.S. - are you doing the RoadOne DE in December?

dcpmark

[quote]Originally posted by 88clbsport:
[QB]Good question on the front license plate, it's been a hot topic with a bunch of people in West LA area. NO, didn't have it on and I never will put on in front.QB]<hr></blockquote>

That's what I thought. Chances are the Explorer did have its front plates on. One more bit of advice: don't drive through Beverly Hills in a car without front plates.....SERIOUSLY. BH makes quite a bit of money with their red-light cameras, and they are a test city for the devices. Anyone without a front plate is asking for trouble.....just ask Assemblyman (former?) Kevin Murray.

PeanutinCA

[quote]Originally posted by dcpmark:
<strong>

That's what I thought. Chances are the Explorer did have its front plates on.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There you go Jason, turn up to the court WITH your front plate on, not that the cop is likely to see it. Ask the officer to tell you if he could see your front plate (being the furthest forward part of your car) before or after the intersection line. When he says "before the line Jason". You tell him, ah ha!!!, Gotcha because I didn't have a front plate on. Case dismissed!!!

Thanks, that will be $275 for my time (no liability thanks).

<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Dylan.

p.s. this will be how I run my business too!!!

dcpmark

[quote]Originally posted by PeanutinCA:
<strong> There you go Jason, turn up to the court WITH your front plate on, not that the cop is likely to see it. Ask the officer to tell you if he could see your front plate (being the furthest forward part of your car) before or after the intersection line. When he says "before the line Jason". You tell him, ah ha!!!, Gotcha because I didn't have a front plate on. Case dismissed!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL!! Nice!!!! I like it!

STLPCA

[quote]Originally posted by Jeff 993TT:
<strong>... Dan, with a disclaimer like that, you'd make a great lawyer!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

IMHO, truer words were never written.

[quote]Originally posted by 88clbsport:
<strong>... Don't worry, your disclaimer was not needed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You know, you can't be too careful - I hear you Californians are a litigious bunch. Besides, that was the fun part. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Speedraser

If you decide to fight it: If you know exactly where the police were sitting, go back there and take pictures of the intersection -- where your car entered it -- to show what the police could and could NOT have seen. If you manage to get a shot of a car hidden by an SUV, like yours was, so much the better. You need to be certain that you didn't enter the intersection under a red light, so it is important to note exactly where the intersection begins, and this must be visible in the pictures. I beat a red light ticket in PA a few years ago with several photos and the following (true) story. I was looking for an address as I approached the intersection, so I looked at the street sign as I approached the light. During the second that I looked at the sign, the light turned yellow, so I didn't know how long it would be until it turned red -- I didn't honestly know whether I'd make it before it turned red. As a result, I watched the light as I entered the intersection. I saw it turn red as I passed almost directly under it, looking up through the top of the windshield. My photos showed that the intersection was long enough so that I had to have entered it in order to see the light turn red while under it. They also showed that the cop was a fairly long distance from the intersection. Because I "admitted" that I didn't see the light turn yellow, I think it gave me some me credibility with the judge; she gave me the benefit of the doubt, over the cop's testimony, and she told me the pictures helped. Of course, I almost fell over when she said that. Good luck.