Bad Dealer Alert! Jack Daniels Porsche pooches a PPI
03-26-2014, 02:23 PM
#46
Race Director
LOL it doesn't matter if my car was "originally" sold by JDP and serviced by them...a PPI still uncovers items on a car that should be fixed. I'm sure there are dealers out there, again just like any other non-car related business that will do as little as possible.
The one glaring difference is that I had a great PPI and others have stated they too love the service JDP offers.
One bad experience does not paint a dealership as the worst.
I had a friend buy his 997 from Champion Porsche (world's largest Porsche dealer I believe) of what was a CPO'd car that was immaculate. Seems that same car was involved in a lovely frontal crash that never appeared on Carfax etc....yet others exude/gush/love Champion Porsche.
Get of your high horse and realize that ALL business are never perfect.
The one glaring difference is that I had a great PPI and others have stated they too love the service JDP offers.
One bad experience does not paint a dealership as the worst.
I had a friend buy his 997 from Champion Porsche (world's largest Porsche dealer I believe) of what was a CPO'd car that was immaculate. Seems that same car was involved in a lovely frontal crash that never appeared on Carfax etc....yet others exude/gush/love Champion Porsche.
Get of your high horse and realize that ALL business are never perfect.
really?
welcome to my ignore list.
03-26-2014, 02:23 PM
#47
Should we be questioning the "needed work" by the new shop? Pretty low miles on that car to be needing new valve guides. Of course you could argue that all 993's need new ones as it's a known weakness. Maybe that's where the new shop is coming from?
Can't judge without looking at the guides but I'd be inclined to button it up with new gaskets to stop the leaks and a good SAI flush. Then monitor oil consumption as suggested earlier.
Not a good experience, hope it all works out - beautiful car, color combination.
Can't judge without looking at the guides but I'd be inclined to button it up with new gaskets to stop the leaks and a good SAI flush. Then monitor oil consumption as suggested earlier.
Not a good experience, hope it all works out - beautiful car, color combination.
03-26-2014, 02:25 PM
#48
I'm thinking this enthusiast knew where the battery was.
Hemmings Motor News December 2013 Page 511
editiondigital.net/publication/?i=180729&p=513
917-969-4664, NY; swosborne@nyc.rr.com WANTED: 1950s-73 Porsche, by collec-tor, 356 or 911, in any condition, $$ paid fairly and seriously, call first.
Hemmings Motor News December 2013 Page 511
editiondigital.net/publication/?i=180729&p=513
917-969-4664, NY; swosborne@nyc.rr.com WANTED: 1950s-73 Porsche, by collec-tor, 356 or 911, in any condition, $$ paid fairly and seriously, call first.
03-26-2014, 02:28 PM
#49
Race Director
Next is the PPI. JD and the owner had an obligation to share with you the results of the service 4 months prior and I wouldn't let either off the hook. Look into the laws of PA and I bet there are representation statutes regarding used cars. I'll bet you have a serious / legitimate case and that could involve serious fraud charges. JD knew about the issue, notified the client, client declined, and hushed up. Why JD failed to provide the service history is questionable - last time I bought a used Porsche the dealership pulled all Porsche service data and provided it.
I would not let them off the hook and I wouldn't do any more work until you have their assurance that they will cover it. I would suggest that JD is only liable to the $350 paid, but the previous owner is liable for the balance of the repair. They priced, represented, and sold the car in "perfect" condition, but knew otherwise. So if it costs $3,000 to bring it up to that level, then they will eat the repair cost and should be happy it isn't worst.
I would get a complete repair proposal from the local shop to bring it into the condition represented. You can even give them the PPI / sales info from the previous owner and ask them to do propose what it would take to get it into that condition. If it's $3,000, then I would send that forward to PO, JD, and CC your attorney. Make the demand that JD / PO (combined) remedy the damages your uncle sustained. Most states include in their statute things like treble damages, where if it was $3,000 then your uncle would be entitled to $9,000 as a disincentive for people to misrepresent used cars. Easy enough to research on the web.
also, treble damages are in many states related only to RICO claims, but that does vary by state.
A lot of this comes down to what is in the PPI report
03-26-2014, 02:34 PM
#50
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
In my experience the service history is not tied to the owner, rather the VIN of the vehicle. Take any BMW to a BMW dealer or Porsche to a Porsche dealer and with the key / Vin you can get a full service history of everything done within the network. When I bought this 993 I even discovered service unknown by the PO, but performed by 3 different Porsche dealers over a 15 year period. And one of the dealers no longer existed - had been folded into a different one. As we know with Porsche, they have pretty good records.
Agree entirely - depends on state, but I would be NY is a pretty liberal in favor of the consumer.
Also agree - much comes down to the PPI request and response.
A lot is coming out within this thread about the PO. The ad clearly states Excellent Condition, Recently Serviced, and the implication is that it needs nothing (and was priced as such). Could just be a "wheeler / dealer" that knows the difference between a 993 and a 997, but may not know where the battery is. We're all assuming and trying to help...
Agree entirely - depends on state, but I would be NY is a pretty liberal in favor of the consumer.
Also agree - much comes down to the PPI request and response.
A lot is coming out within this thread about the PO. The ad clearly states Excellent Condition, Recently Serviced, and the implication is that it needs nothing (and was priced as such). Could just be a "wheeler / dealer" that knows the difference between a 993 and a 997, but may not know where the battery is. We're all assuming and trying to help...
03-26-2014, 02:50 PM
#51
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
One problems is the inconsistency of PPI's.
When I get asked to do one, it takes me at least 6-8 hours to run through my 4 pages of checks - including a full compression and leakdown. I need permission from the owner to take the car apart. On a turbo, even more time. And I know that I am not covering the car 100%, it's impossible to do that. I also recommend that the car be looked at by a good body shop in addition, since I may not see things a body guy will.
I have seen other PPI's - and some they are laughable, basically does the car run, and do the lights work?
One time, a dealer told me during a PPI that they can tell how good the compression is by using the PST-2 on a 993, so they do not have to pull the plugs - really?? I was very impressed by their x-ray vision.
At the end of the day, the decision to buy is a personal one that includes data (carfax's, repair records, PPI's) and an assessment of risk. It's hard for a new possible owner, they are often blinded by the attraction of the car, so it's the mechanics job to coach the owner on the real and possible issues with the car so they can know the risks.
The new owner should not have to chase the dealership for the repair records - those should have been provided as part of the negotiation of the vehicle. Why ask for them later?
It sounds like this was a bit of a perfect storm - a newbie owner, not reviewing all the repair records before the deal, and not choosing a good shop to do a PPI. Hopefully the car is actually solid, it just needs a SAI clean-out in the next while, and perhaps some gaskets.
Cheers,
Mike
When I get asked to do one, it takes me at least 6-8 hours to run through my 4 pages of checks - including a full compression and leakdown. I need permission from the owner to take the car apart. On a turbo, even more time. And I know that I am not covering the car 100%, it's impossible to do that. I also recommend that the car be looked at by a good body shop in addition, since I may not see things a body guy will.
I have seen other PPI's - and some they are laughable, basically does the car run, and do the lights work?
One time, a dealer told me during a PPI that they can tell how good the compression is by using the PST-2 on a 993, so they do not have to pull the plugs - really?? I was very impressed by their x-ray vision.
At the end of the day, the decision to buy is a personal one that includes data (carfax's, repair records, PPI's) and an assessment of risk. It's hard for a new possible owner, they are often blinded by the attraction of the car, so it's the mechanics job to coach the owner on the real and possible issues with the car so they can know the risks.
The new owner should not have to chase the dealership for the repair records - those should have been provided as part of the negotiation of the vehicle. Why ask for them later?
It sounds like this was a bit of a perfect storm - a newbie owner, not reviewing all the repair records before the deal, and not choosing a good shop to do a PPI. Hopefully the car is actually solid, it just needs a SAI clean-out in the next while, and perhaps some gaskets.
Cheers,
Mike
03-26-2014, 03:19 PM
#52
Race Director
I appreciate all the opinions. This is his first Porsche, and he's never been a car enthusiast before so this entire experience is new to him. I advised him on getting a PPI but didn't suggest a dealer - that was his choice. Considering that the car had been serviced there for the last 13 years, it seemed a reasonable choice given that they were very familiar with the car. My uncle isn't an idiot - he's a smart guy who unfortunately got taken for a ride by an unscrupulous seller and a negligent dealer.
Of course, no PPI is guaranteed to find everything that can be wrong, but we're talking about a MAJOR service issue that was discovered just 4 months earlier, and documented in the dealer's own records. When a PPI is done, the dealer is responsible to whoever pays for it, and obligated to disclose EVERYTHING they know about the car that could be relevant to a purchase decision. JDP really screwed this up.
Of course, no PPI is guaranteed to find everything that can be wrong, but we're talking about a MAJOR service issue that was discovered just 4 months earlier, and documented in the dealer's own records. When a PPI is done, the dealer is responsible to whoever pays for it, and obligated to disclose EVERYTHING they know about the car that could be relevant to a purchase decision. JDP really screwed this up.
You can solve the privacy issue by getting the current owner to tell the dealer they can share the service history with you.
Caveat emptor still applies. Hope you get a decent resolution.
03-26-2014, 03:54 PM
#53
Banned
Hi Dave,
Have not seen you in awhile. Sorry to hear of this mess. Couple of thoughts…
If your relative conducted business across interstate lines via phone/email etc a fraud case can be built on this. Worth the effort? Maybe not. But if it sticks the dealer will be in for a world of hurt. At the least put together a very detailed and specific list of items not addressed by the PPI and the estimated cost to repair and send out to the service manger, copy the general manager and if you can dig it up, the owner(s). Ask for a specific amount and know in advance what you will accept.
I have heard very mixed impressions of the shop in Gunbarrel…I know they are close by to you. If you have used them for awhile and are happy fine but you may want to consider another shop.
Have not seen you in awhile. Sorry to hear of this mess. Couple of thoughts…
If your relative conducted business across interstate lines via phone/email etc a fraud case can be built on this. Worth the effort? Maybe not. But if it sticks the dealer will be in for a world of hurt. At the least put together a very detailed and specific list of items not addressed by the PPI and the estimated cost to repair and send out to the service manger, copy the general manager and if you can dig it up, the owner(s). Ask for a specific amount and know in advance what you will accept.
I have heard very mixed impressions of the shop in Gunbarrel…I know they are close by to you. If you have used them for awhile and are happy fine but you may want to consider another shop.
03-26-2014, 04:19 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
A couple years ago I made the mistake of selling my 96' 4S. The buyer choose Karl to do the PPI. I was a bit anxious especially when it came to the deal breakers like compression and leak down. I knew there was no way in hell he would fudge those numbers if they were off.
You are nieve if you think an Indy would risk their reputation, their livelihood, and putting food on their families table to keep a buddy happy or retaining a customer that they hope would be replacing the car they were selling.
03-26-2014, 04:28 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Agree with most of the posts regarding PPI and agree that the dealer blew it.
But as far as the SAI and the oil leaks, this may not be as bad as it sounds. The SAI issue might be handled with an SAI flush, and a few gaskets might address the oil leaks. The car needs to go to a good independent to assess what needs to happen. Cylinder head rebuild may be overkill.
Also, another good reason to not run the engine tray.
But as far as the SAI and the oil leaks, this may not be as bad as it sounds. The SAI issue might be handled with an SAI flush, and a few gaskets might address the oil leaks. The car needs to go to a good independent to assess what needs to happen. Cylinder head rebuild may be overkill.
Also, another good reason to not run the engine tray.
03-26-2014, 04:32 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
When I replaced the 4S with the 2S I took Karl to NJ with me for the PPI. He put his tools in a suitcase and we jumped a flight. Seller who was not an enthusiast agreed in advance to let us take the car to a Rennlisters house that had a lift.
It was a fun and pleasurable experience. I stood right under the car and watched the leakdown and compression numbers.
It was a fun and pleasurable experience. I stood right under the car and watched the leakdown and compression numbers.
Last edited by Mark Harris; 03-26-2014 at 11:23 PM.
03-26-2014, 05:18 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
After 4 pages of rennlist banter (which is a good thing), my reaction is that trying to get JDP or the seller to step up and pay for the repairs is not going to happen and it would serve the OP and his uncle well to accept this situation as a learning experience and move forward. All can be fixed for some money and it is unlikely that a top end rebuild is necessary.
We are constantly reminded that nothing replaces seeing the car yourself before you hand over the money and to have a rennfax if at all possible before you make the trip.
We are constantly reminded that nothing replaces seeing the car yourself before you hand over the money and to have a rennfax if at all possible before you make the trip.
03-26-2014, 06:26 PM
#59
Drifting
After 4 pages of rennlist banter (which is a good thing), my reaction is that trying to get JDP or the seller to step up and pay for the repairs is not going to happen and it would serve the OP and his uncle well to accept this situation as a learning experience and move forward. All can be fixed for some money and it is unlikely that a top end rebuild is necessary. We are constantly reminded that nothing replaces seeing the car yourself before you hand over the money and to have a rennfax if at all possible before you make the trip.
At the end of the day your buying a used car and a private transaction, it's unfortunate but that's the risks you take esp with a 15+ year old car. If you had bought from a dealer maybe more likely chance you could go after them IMO.
I'm sure it doesn't help in a hot 993 market, where I'm hearing some even buy without PPIs.
03-26-2014, 07:18 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Not entirely true. My Indy owns the shop www.RennsportKC.com and is a close friend. We have traveled to the Rolex 24, Scottsdale auction weekend, etc. together...blah, blah, blah.
A couple years ago I made the mistake of selling my 96' 4S. The buyer choose Karl to do the PPI. I was a bit anxious especially when it came to the deal breakers like compression and leak down. I knew there was no way in hell he would fudge those numbers if they were off.
You are nieve if you think an Indy would risk their reputation, their livelihood, and putting food on their families table to keep a buddy happy or retaining a customer that they hope would be replacing the car they were selling.
A couple years ago I made the mistake of selling my 96' 4S. The buyer choose Karl to do the PPI. I was a bit anxious especially when it came to the deal breakers like compression and leak down. I knew there was no way in hell he would fudge those numbers if they were off.
You are nieve if you think an Indy would risk their reputation, their livelihood, and putting food on their families table to keep a buddy happy or retaining a customer that they hope would be replacing the car they were selling.
That said, I stand by my statement that the potential for conflict of interest is significant. I'm aware of a couple of shops that will not do a PPI on a customer car for that very reason.
Oh, and the word you were looking for is "naive," not "nieve." I am neither.