random orbital time!
12-20-2012, 11:21 PM
#46
Instructor
About a year and a half ago I posted this to answer some "how to" questions for a new machine polisher buyer and got some decent positive feedback.
Here you go…
With the caveat I am no expert but I have learned a lot by trial and error, here is what I know (or at least convinced myself that my opinion and "fact" are one and the same):
RULE NUMBER # 1 (never violate) - always start with the least aggressive polish/pad combination that you think will get the job done. Only move up if you need to.
Polishers:
Polish - remember rule #1
With the caveat I am no expert but I have learned a lot by trial and error, here is what I know (or at least convinced myself that my opinion and "fact" are one and the same):
RULE NUMBER # 1 (never violate) - always start with the least aggressive polish/pad combination that you think will get the job done. Only move up if you need to.
Polishers:
Rotary - forced rotation, it spins. Speeds as high as 3000 RPM. Lots of cutting (polishing) power but can be a challenge to master. It is easy to leave holograms, visible "shadows" left by the polishing. They also have enough cutting power that it can fairly easily damage your paint. Especially, if you hit an edge. As a newbie DO NOT buy a rotary.
Random Orbital, dual action - the thing kind of shakes and moves the pad in a random pattern which pretty much eliminates the hologram problem. No forced rotation. Much less cutting power than the rotary. As a newbie look online for a Porter Cable, Griots, or Meguairs. Expect to spend $150 or so. BTW - the ones sold in most auto parts stores are junk.
Mine, the Flex XC 3401 - has a little of both. It has force rotation of the rotary but max forced rotation is only 480 RPM. Has less polishing power than a rotary but more than the Random Orbital yet is still fairly idiot proof. Expect to pay near $300.
I picked the Flex and have been happy with it. I have never used another machine so I have no comparisons to make.
Polish:Random Orbital, dual action - the thing kind of shakes and moves the pad in a random pattern which pretty much eliminates the hologram problem. No forced rotation. Much less cutting power than the rotary. As a newbie look online for a Porter Cable, Griots, or Meguairs. Expect to spend $150 or so. BTW - the ones sold in most auto parts stores are junk.
Mine, the Flex XC 3401 - has a little of both. It has force rotation of the rotary but max forced rotation is only 480 RPM. Has less polishing power than a rotary but more than the Random Orbital yet is still fairly idiot proof. Expect to pay near $300.
I picked the Flex and have been happy with it. I have never used another machine so I have no comparisons to make.
This can get mind numbing as there are lots of makers and they use the same, or similar terms, but mean lots of different things. I have only tried two makers and have one favorite.
Meguiars: You'll see a great deal about M105 & M205. These are excellent polishes but have one difference from most others, they are non-diminishing. The abrasive particles are tough and do not break down. They maintain their cutting power as long as you polish. M105 is very aggressive while M205 is a finishing polish. They are designed to use M105 to remove your defects and M205 provides the final pop. M105 has a little steeper learning curve and it produces quite a bit of dust.
Regardless of maker's polish you use, once you have removed any big defects the finishing polish will be all you need. So if you are a home DIY, don’t buy a big bottle of the more aggressive polish.
Pads:Meguiars: You'll see a great deal about M105 & M205. These are excellent polishes but have one difference from most others, they are non-diminishing. The abrasive particles are tough and do not break down. They maintain their cutting power as long as you polish. M105 is very aggressive while M205 is a finishing polish. They are designed to use M105 to remove your defects and M205 provides the final pop. M105 has a little steeper learning curve and it produces quite a bit of dust.
BTW - Mequiars has just created/introduced a new system that uses specially designed micro fiber pads, a cutting polish, D300, and a finishing polish that includes a wax, D301. Both are non-diminishing polishes. I have not tried it but the system is getting rave reviews from professional detailers as it cuts down on time.
Menzerna: I have used Intensive Polish (aggressive but not quite as much as M105) and Micro Polish PO85rd, a finishing polish. Both are diminishing polishes. Which means that as you work them the abrasives break down, the polish changes visually (becomes kind of opaque) and eventually provides no additional cut.- These two Menzerna polishes have become my personal favorites.
Regardless of maker's polish you use, once you have removed any big defects the finishing polish will be all you need. So if you are a home DIY, don’t buy a big bottle of the more aggressive polish.
Each maker color codes them to show their level of cut. Lake Country is a big maker and their colors go like this:
Some have dimples, some are flat, there are lots of minor differences that different users will swear by. I use black and green pads the most. The most aggressive pad I own is white. For the above photos I used Menzerna PO85rd with a black pad.
Process:- Gold - least aggressive, soft
- Red
- Black
- Green
- White
- Orange
- Yellow
- Purple - most aggressive, stiff
Some have dimples, some are flat, there are lots of minor differences that different users will swear by. I use black and green pads the most. The most aggressive pad I own is white. For the above photos I used Menzerna PO85rd with a black pad.
Wash the car. Unfortunately, this is where we all put swirls on our cars. If you are careful you can minimize the rate of swirl application. I like the two bucket method and use LOTS of water. The first bucket has your soapy water (buy a soap designed to wash cars), the second has fresh water used to rinse your mitt. I also hold the hose and flush the car with water just in front of my mitt as I gently wash the car.
There is a special place in hell for anyone that takes a 993 to a car wash…
Continue to prepare the paint by claying, if needed. You can check if you need to clay by putting your hand in a plastic bag and then gently rub the surface of the paint. If it feels rough, clay the car. If you have never done this you will not believe how smooth the paint will become. It is just super cool… Use LOTS of lubricant.
Many people will tape off window trim, joints, badges, etc… with blue painters tape. I once polished my windshield with a special glass compound and it made LOTS of dust. I wish I had taped all the joints and other openings that were anywhere near the windshield. BTW - glass is very hard and the standard paint polishes do nothing.
There is a special place in hell for anyone that takes a 993 to a car wash…
Continue to prepare the paint by claying, if needed. You can check if you need to clay by putting your hand in a plastic bag and then gently rub the surface of the paint. If it feels rough, clay the car. If you have never done this you will not believe how smooth the paint will become. It is just super cool… Use LOTS of lubricant.
Many people will tape off window trim, joints, badges, etc… with blue painters tape. I once polished my windshield with a special glass compound and it made LOTS of dust. I wish I had taped all the joints and other openings that were anywhere near the windshield. BTW - glass is very hard and the standard paint polishes do nothing.
Polish - remember rule #1
Work small areas at a time. For example, on a 911 I do about one sixth of the hood at a time.
Here’s what I do:
Wax/Sealants:Here’s what I do:
- Put a tiny spritz of water on my pad. I mean tiny
- Apply polish to pad, four to six dots (each half size of a dime) of polish
- Gently use the polisher to spread the polish on the paint before turning it on
- Turn on polisher
- Polish until you see the polish break down (assuming Merzerna use)
- Wipe off with micro fiber cloth (clean, soft, with lots of nap)
- Check the surface
- Repeat as needed
I wish I had a dollar for every person that looks at my car and then asks me "what wax do you use?" It's polishing, not wax, that makes your paint pop. Wax or sealant just protect it from the elements, the sacrificial coating.
I have tried lots of waxes and sealants. Talk about mind numbing… Here's what I found, I like one wax and one sealant.
If you are a pure wax guy, get P21s Carnauba. Very deep shine, easy to put on, but lasts only a short time.
If you like sealants, try Blackfire Wet Diamond. Easy to put on, seems to last and will give you the slickest, smoothest finish you can believe.
Applying wax/sealant:I have tried lots of waxes and sealants. Talk about mind numbing… Here's what I found, I like one wax and one sealant.
If you are a pure wax guy, get P21s Carnauba. Very deep shine, easy to put on, but lasts only a short time.
If you like sealants, try Blackfire Wet Diamond. Easy to put on, seems to last and will give you the slickest, smoothest finish you can believe.
P21s - I do by hand
Blackfire Wet Diamond (my favorite) - I apply it with a red pad at a very slow setting on my Flex. It is some type of oil based product and a tiny amount spreads a long way. I start at one corner of the car and by the time I have applied the whole car, the first section is ready to be hand wiped off with another clean, soft, thick nap micro fiber cloth.
Other random thoughts:Blackfire Wet Diamond (my favorite) - I apply it with a red pad at a very slow setting on my Flex. It is some type of oil based product and a tiny amount spreads a long way. I start at one corner of the car and by the time I have applied the whole car, the first section is ready to be hand wiped off with another clean, soft, thick nap micro fiber cloth.
If your car is older than late 1980's it will probably have single stage paint, no clear coat. Your pad will turn the color of the paint and in a moment of terror you will be convinced you are in the process of stripping the car to bare metal. Not so and this is normal.
Cars with clear coats will generally not transfer color to the pad. However, some clear coats are tinted with the underlying paint color, not really clear clear coats. So you may get a little blush of the color on the pads.
Have a couple of each pad you plan to use so the pad stays fairly clean. I just did my C4S and used two black pads to do the car. Half way through I got out a new pad.
On a 911, tape the seal around the sunroof. Trust me on this one. It's easy to hit the seal and have the pad pull the seal loose. Did you know there is a little white plastic cord type thing under there? No, I wish I was unaware of that as well…
Blackfire Wet Diamond is just about impossible to remove from pads. It is not water based and it laughs at soap or other detergents. I have one red pad set aside that I only use with BFWD.
I buy just about everything online.
Cars with clear coats will generally not transfer color to the pad. However, some clear coats are tinted with the underlying paint color, not really clear clear coats. So you may get a little blush of the color on the pads.
Have a couple of each pad you plan to use so the pad stays fairly clean. I just did my C4S and used two black pads to do the car. Half way through I got out a new pad.
On a 911, tape the seal around the sunroof. Trust me on this one. It's easy to hit the seal and have the pad pull the seal loose. Did you know there is a little white plastic cord type thing under there? No, I wish I was unaware of that as well…
Blackfire Wet Diamond is just about impossible to remove from pads. It is not water based and it laughs at soap or other detergents. I have one red pad set aside that I only use with BFWD.
I buy just about everything online.
12-21-2012, 12:33 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
Jeff U, great info. Thanks. When you say you do the hood in six sections i assume you dont actually tape it off in sections, you just work in sections. Correct?
12-21-2012, 06:45 AM
#48
Instructor
Most of the time when people tape flat surfaces it's just for show. They want to post a photo with a clear dividing line showing the difference.
12-21-2012, 06:33 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2012
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I have lots of the products that Phil sells and spent about 20 hrs on my Audi RS4. The only area I have not touched on that car yet is the roof of the car. I did part of it just never got to finishing it. This car hardly has any micro marring on it at all there are zero swirls as well after detailing it and the paint on a metallic Audi is very tough.
Now I did go a little crazy on the rear of my 964 91 C2 and went down to the primer in a few places around the rear wing. I am thinking this occurred bc I was using some 3" SurBuf and MicroFiber pads and there were areas where the paint was badly oxidized. No doubt looks better than it did prior to detailing but would have been better if I had not gone through the paint. I think the oxidation might have been more of a factor than the DA but not totally sure...just could have been me. Here are pics of the 964 which you can see how the DA brought it back to life.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/6416866...7631770678346/
12-21-2012, 06:47 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
I've been wondering about hard paints vs soft paints and how the level of "hardness" relates to the color.
Since all modern cars have a clear coat, which I assume is "clear"over the color, and the clear is what is being worked by these processes, then how or why do different colors on the same year make and model have differing hardness?
I also have a phantom black metallic audi and was told my paint is very hard. The same car in jet black (non metallic) is said to have very soft paint. I assume the clear coat used by the factory on both would be identical.
My midnight blue 993TT is also supposedly on the softer side.
What's the story on this?
Since all modern cars have a clear coat, which I assume is "clear"over the color, and the clear is what is being worked by these processes, then how or why do different colors on the same year make and model have differing hardness?
I also have a phantom black metallic audi and was told my paint is very hard. The same car in jet black (non metallic) is said to have very soft paint. I assume the clear coat used by the factory on both would be identical.
My midnight blue 993TT is also supposedly on the softer side.
What's the story on this?
01-11-2013, 12:46 PM
#52
Racer
Thread Starter
OK, so i took Mike's advice and got the menerza polish and the white lake country pads from autogeek. and yes we are autogeeks... thinking of this as a license plate... but i digress. finally got a few hours with no kid duty or other obligations and went at it like a paint polishing crack addict. MAN, what a difference! a gnat would have a hard time standing up straight on my car now. thanks for all the great advice and what not to worry about (like the pad turning red -- yeah that's scary as hell).
01-11-2013, 01:26 PM
#54
Addict
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OK, so i took Mike's advice and got the menerza polish and the white lake country pads from autogeek. and yes we are autogeeks... thinking of this as a license plate... but i digress. finally got a few hours with no kid duty or other obligations and went at it like a paint polishing crack addict. MAN, what a difference! a gnat would have a hard time standing up straight on my car now. thanks for all the great advice and what not to worry about (like the pad turning red -- yeah that's scary as hell).
Cheers,
Mike
03-24-2014, 07:54 PM
#55
Instructor
I have used a porter cable 7424xp for the last couple of years. Over time, I have become a bit more skilled with it (key lessons learned - less product is better than more and keep the pads clear of too much compound, polish or wax and let the tool do the work), for the most part it is pretty fool proof. I just picked up a Rupes 21. It has a 21 mm throw vs. the 5 to 8 mm throw of the Porter Cable. The pros claim that it does the job in about half of the time. I just got it and haven't had a chance to do too much with it but it is very nice. Heavier than the porter cable. I polished and waxed the front end of the 993 Friday evening. Wow, it does make a difference, in time and quality. It made quick work of the hood and front fenders. Problem is, sand chips that I picked up on the hood and front bumper in a sand storm between here and Phoenix now haunt me all the more. I am finally going to have to have them fixed. Will probably try the Dr. Paint Chip method. I picked up the Rupes, virtually new, from a pro detailer. He had purchased two and decided to sell one. Got it for $300. It is mounted with the 5 inch backing plate, an inch smaller than stock. I am probably keeping the porter cable for tighter areas, I will put a 3 inch backing plate on it. Definitely better than trying to do the car by hand! Phil
03-24-2014, 08:21 PM
#56
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Jeff, great write up.
I did this about six months ago. Fab results. I'm still stuck on how to get the tough spots. You know, the spots where you can't get the DA in there (behind door handle, between sideV windows and door window, etc).
Anyone???
I did this about six months ago. Fab results. I'm still stuck on how to get the tough spots. You know, the spots where you can't get the DA in there (behind door handle, between sideV windows and door window, etc).
Anyone???
03-24-2014, 10:40 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
I recently employed the Porter Cable to rejuvenate a 15 year old neglected finish on a Miata I just bought, it is amazing:
One thing I also recently learned, you can change the PC head over to an "Uber Ultra Interior Brush" to use on interior bits to deep clean, those results are pretty impressive also. Link to product:
http://www.detailersdomain.com/Uber-...her_p_754.html
Used it on Miata's top and leather seats, I've heard it works wonders on carpets also but I already had a steam cleaner.
Lastly, I took a guy's advice and bought some Mr. Clean Magic Erasers and used them (after wetting) on the tan hard vinyl / plastic interior bits, those results were incredible also.
One thing I also recently learned, you can change the PC head over to an "Uber Ultra Interior Brush" to use on interior bits to deep clean, those results are pretty impressive also. Link to product:
http://www.detailersdomain.com/Uber-...her_p_754.html
Used it on Miata's top and leather seats, I've heard it works wonders on carpets also but I already had a steam cleaner.
Lastly, I took a guy's advice and bought some Mr. Clean Magic Erasers and used them (after wetting) on the tan hard vinyl / plastic interior bits, those results were incredible also.
03-25-2014, 12:00 AM
#58
Instructor
But for the areas you describe, there is no other way than by hand.
Since your hand is so much weaker than a machine, the mild finishing polish you would normal use with a machine will not give you enough cutting power to remove swirls by hand.
Move up to a more aggressive polish with a micro fiber cloth as your pad. Or, get some finger pads:
http://www.autopia-carcare.com/wolfg...l#.UzDuZVwc9UQ
It is hard to remove swirls by hand but on tiny areas it can be done. Just expect sore fingers and hands.
Fortunately those areas are hard to see and only the most **** will ever know it's not perfect.
