The 997 will burst that 993 bubble
12-09-2012, 12:35 PM
#121
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Ken,
I consider your views as from someone who really understands these motors and I do appreciate your expert knowledge (and driving skills with a rented Impala on the Bear Mountain twisties).
Let me bold to say the following: 993 motors are not perfect either. Sure, the early M96 has some issues (not nearly as common as this forum believes). Imploding with IMS bearing failures (mostly corrected in 2006 and thereafter). Ask a dealer how many IMS failures they have seen and the numbers are very very low.
But the vast majority of folks here believe that air cooled is the end all of Porsche's engine technology and advancements. Not the case. You know better. And I am sure you have seen your share of valve guides, carbon buildup and top end rebuilds on pre M96 motors.
My point is that those who believe they broke the mold of fine Porsches after the last 993 rolled off the line are just plain wrong.
Love 993s. Enjoyed mine for many years. I no longer enjoy wrenching at this stage of my life and if you do not wrench a 993, depreciation will be the least of one's worries regarding the cost of 993 ownership. Been there; done that.
I consider your views as from someone who really understands these motors and I do appreciate your expert knowledge (and driving skills with a rented Impala on the Bear Mountain twisties).
Let me bold to say the following: 993 motors are not perfect either. Sure, the early M96 has some issues (not nearly as common as this forum believes). Imploding with IMS bearing failures (mostly corrected in 2006 and thereafter). Ask a dealer how many IMS failures they have seen and the numbers are very very low.
But the vast majority of folks here believe that air cooled is the end all of Porsche's engine technology and advancements. Not the case. You know better. And I am sure you have seen your share of valve guides, carbon buildup and top end rebuilds on pre M96 motors.
My point is that those who believe they broke the mold of fine Porsches after the last 993 rolled off the line are just plain wrong.
Love 993s. Enjoyed mine for many years. I no longer enjoy wrenching at this stage of my life and if you do not wrench a 993, depreciation will be the least of one's worries regarding the cost of 993 ownership. Been there; done that.
Point is, show me one post-'84 911 engine that, absent running out of oil/overrev (meaning owner error) that's had to be thrown onto the scrap heap from merely driving the thing. Hell, even go back into the black hole of the 2.7L engines, and find what percentage needed to be repaired (albeit comprehensively), versus chucked into the trash. And if we merely want to talk valve guides, let's compare a 100K set out of an M96 engine to an air cooled. Bet they're replaced on the typical M96 competition engine, though I have zero experience with Spec Boxster/Spec 996/etc. I'll inquire next time I have an opportunity.
Finally, you'll never hear me saying that air cooling in and of itself is superior. I was quite intrigued with the 935 water cooling system that came onto the scene about the time I became interested in 911s. I'll gladly join you in helping educate everyone on the advantages of that water cooling. Just make my example of best practices center on the GT3 and Turbos.
High marks from the Porsche guys on what they've seen, or not seen, with the DFI engines, too. Sign me up for a '09 997 in another five years? Nah, at this point I seriously doubt I'll ever buy another car that's worth more than what I can buy with the petty cash fund.
12-09-2012, 01:22 PM
#122
Race Director
hysterical coming from you. You name your lug wrench yet
12-09-2012, 01:27 PM
#123
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Your smugness is embarrassing. I am floored that there are actually threats to ban me from RL when I have not uttered a foul word or name-called. On the other hand, I have heard all manner of names and foul language directed toward me. I should report all of the guilty parties. I expected more from RL members.
12-09-2012, 02:10 PM
#124
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The 993 is not the apotheosis of the 911. The 993 after the 964 further alienated and insulated the driver from the road. It further removed the driver to road interface that the true 911, especially the 3.2s had in common. The 993 has more in common with the 997 than people are willing to admit. I submit that the 993 was not the pinnacle but rather the prelude to the 911 becoming a luxury touring car. The pinnacle was truly the G50 3.2.
The 993 is an improved 964.
the 1984-1989 G50 3.2 era with boxy square fog lamps and black acordian style impact bumpers were the red headed stepchild generation of 911. Hardly the "pinnacle"....
The 993 is not a pre 1974 911 in terms of simplicity, but it is by no means wearing a condom when it comes to "road interface" when compared to these older 911 porsches.....
The 993 dash, gauges, windsheild, wheel base and sound are all classic 911 but more user friendly then the past generations.
Still every bit a drivers car.
If you think it makes the experience feel "alienated", take out the carpet and mufflers and add a non airbag steering wheel and monoball suspension.
Vola', you got what you are looking for and better.
12-09-2012, 02:29 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
Your smugness is embarrassing. I am floored that there are actually threats to ban me from RL when I have not uttered a foul word or name-called. On the other hand, I have heard all manner of names and foul language directed toward me. I should report all of the guilty parties. I expected more from RL members.
What, dad hasn't sent your allowance yet this month, little boy?
12-09-2012, 02:43 PM
#126
Three Wheelin'
I am the one advocating for a temporary ban. This thread was and is an obvious attempt to troll. The OP himself seems to be making light of that fact. I've seen many people get away with worse on RL, but in many of the forums I frequent, activity like the OP's would earn a temporary ban. I'd ask the mods to consider it.
12-09-2012, 02:57 PM
#127
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I am the one advocating for a temporary ban. This thread was and is an obvious attempt to troll. The OP himself seems to be making light of that fact. I've seen many people get away with worse on RL, but in many of the forums I frequent, activity like the OP's would earn a temporary ban. I'd ask the mods to consider it.
the OP may or may not understand this and is sour grapes.
I would be too if i was waiting to budget a 993 purchase
12-09-2012, 02:59 PM
#128
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I am the one advocating for a temporary ban. This thread was and is an obvious attempt to troll. The OP himself seems to be making light of that fact. I've seen many people get away with worse on RL, but in many of the forums I frequent, activity like the OP's would earn a temporary ban. I'd ask the mods to consider it.
12-09-2012, 03:01 PM
#129
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The 993 has no more in common with the 997 then the 964.
The 993 is an improved 964.
the 1984-1989 G50 3.2 era with boxy square fog lamps and black acordian style impact bumpers were the red headed stepchild generation of 911. Hardly the "pinnacle"....
The 993 is not a pre 1974 911 in terms of simplicity, but it is by no means wearing a condom when it comes to "road interface" when compared to these older 911 porsches.....
The 993 dash, gauges, windsheild, wheel base and sound are all classic 911 but more user friendly then the past generations.
Still every bit a drivers car.
If you think it makes the experience feel "alienated", take out the carpet and mufflers and add a non airbag steering wheel and monoball suspension.
Vola', you got what you are looking for and better.
The 993 is an improved 964.
the 1984-1989 G50 3.2 era with boxy square fog lamps and black acordian style impact bumpers were the red headed stepchild generation of 911. Hardly the "pinnacle"....
The 993 is not a pre 1974 911 in terms of simplicity, but it is by no means wearing a condom when it comes to "road interface" when compared to these older 911 porsches.....
The 993 dash, gauges, windsheild, wheel base and sound are all classic 911 but more user friendly then the past generations.
Still every bit a drivers car.
If you think it makes the experience feel "alienated", take out the carpet and mufflers and add a non airbag steering wheel and monoball suspension.
Vola', you got what you are looking for and better.
Nicely put. You make some good points.
12-09-2012, 04:06 PM
#132
Nordschleife Master
12-09-2012, 04:07 PM
#133
Race Director
12-09-2012, 04:17 PM
#134
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I need to become a member, you're right. But now I'm getting ban threats from other members so it makes me less inclined. I do not use foul language, name-call or bully. I simply present provocative topics and ideas for passionate discourse. I had one member actually call me a "D-bag". Didn't know we were still in HS.
12-09-2012, 04:39 PM
#135
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