s4senna

I finally got a chance to push the car a little bit on a beautiful twisty road sunday afternoon here in L.A....

here are my impressions...(and yes, this is my first porsche)

the chassis is excellent in terms of rigidity, and I can see how it is definitely a great foundation for racing.
I personally find the car C4S a little underpowered and the typical understeer is a little frustrating going into sharp corners (trailbraking seems like a better approach as anything else makes you miss the apex). I would like to be able to lift the throttle and shift to oversteering to power out of the corner, but as soon as you get back hard on the gas, it starts pushing (the front) again...

in my humble opinion, here are the list of factors that can make this experience a little more enjoyable (knowing my car stands on M030 springs and stock shocks)

bilstein or koni shocks (the ride is too soft as it is)
a strut bar (feels like must)
wider (245) front tires and perhaps more weight in the front, to help the wheels grip again in hard tight turn ins
a different approach to driving (this cannot be driven like an M3)

I have to re-think the more power rant as I honestly don't think this will help for the under to oversteer transition....

also wondering if you guys think thicker roll bars can help??

the great thing about my suspension set up, is how easily this thing swallowed bumps and occasional bad road conditions, never lost it's composure. I guess making everything stiffer could make me loose that, but it will also put a much bigger smile on my face when the road is perfect

food for though....

Bill Verburg

The 4S is saddled w/ the most understeer of all 993s by far, because of the wid rear track and AWD, but even a 2wd n/b has too much oem. I believe that it's a liability thing in that if the car goes off the road front end first it's a driver issue and if rear end first it's a Nader issue.

To get rid of the native under steer you need to change the ratio of f/r spring rates. Stiffen the rear wrt the front

sways can help too, stiffen the rear wrt the front

wheels, wider wheels and/or tires in front

if you have adjustable shocks soften the front/stiffen the rear

alignment go for more neg camber in front/less in the rear

tire pressures, raise the front/lower the rear

use a bigger rear spoiler

KaiB

I would first spend this spring on the track as much as possible; enlist a bit of help from a coach experienced with these cars.

Bill's advice is spot on, but I often think we mod before we truly know what we either want or need.

element

I would look at camber to get the front wheels to bite more and sway bars to stiffen the rear.. I have the same issue with my first track adventures with a conservative setup.. adjusting your dampning will also help, but I lean on the side of changing the physical geometry of the suspension (camber) first and dialing it in with dampning.

Power - suspension setup will also help get the power down as you go stiffer.. and you know what they say - it's more fun to drive a slow car fast vs a fast car slow

phil.

911Dave

With the AWD cars, you also have the ABD system which will work against you trying to throttle steer (at speeds under 45 mph IIRC). Also at low speeds, the LSD will give it some understeer in tight turns. It isn't easy to break the rear tires loose in the 4S.

trophy

Bill has suggested an easy and very cheap (free) option. Work with your tire pressures, it is amazing how much you can change the balance of a car with tire pressure adjustment.

Mark in Baltimore

Bill beat me to it. It sounds like the OP has some track experience; maybe, maybe not. Anyway, the excess understeer can be dialed out to a decent degree. The easiest ways are through wider front tires, a bigger rear bar or, even better, adjustable front and rear bars such as the RS or TRG sways.

IME, these cars can be made to handle exceptionally well and be quite forgiving with fairly prosaic dampers such as PSS-9's (compared to Moton$ or JRZ$).

Stealth 993

You are driving the car wrong. You got to enter the corner slow (on brakes) then let the suspension set. Once it's set you can get full on the gas. You also got to adjust your lines. It took me a couple of years to be able to push the C4S, & now I can go faster then I should.

Also getting a good wheel alignment, & nice tires helps a ton. Getting 235's on the front really helps.

Seriously, stop driving it like a 2wd car, & learn how to get on the power early. The back will stick, once you get the front sorted. I get on the power sooner, & harder then the 2wd guys, that makes me faster everywhere else.

race911

The few times I used my 4S on track when it was ~125K/100% stock (albeit with oldish 245 + 275 Hoosiers I had laying around), it was good enough. Not sure where anyone is driving fast enough on the street to experience push in anything but a low traction ~25mph hairpin.

Of course a properly matched spring/shock setup will greatly change the character of the car. But I don't think fiddling with a little bit of this-or-that is meaningful on the street. Sometimes it's hard enough to discern changes on track WITH data analysis! (You should see what I've tried to discern from the "oops" day at Laguna three weeks ago--imperceptible changes even on the session where I had the ~170 lb. passenger!)

race911

Really? It's a pretty benign platform. What just came to mind in reading that was my experience using my latest acquisition--Ed Hughes' "Ruby" at AMP last month, which was the first time I'd seen that track and the first time I'd aggressively driven a torsion bar chassis 911 in over 10 years. My second lap at speed (third overall) was ~2:01, and my day's best was ~1:56. On 6 year old AD08s. (Best Spec 944 time was said to be ~1:53, and a 600 -lb. lighter, better tired Spec 911-ish car was around 1:50.)

If a car gives you confidence, really no reason you can't feel your way through--I relied on my old stage rally skills from my teens.

s4senna

I do have track and racing experience, on karts, cars, and mostly motorcycles.
I also acknowledged that the car has to be driven different...and yes, it seems it does need to be trailbraked into corners...(most rear-mid engine cart-karts do)
however, I still think (and thanks to all the feedback) it needs a bigger footprint up front and tweaks can be made to alleviate some of it...
when I felt that, I was entering relatively sharp corners around 50 mph...and I was surprised how the front was pushing...much more than an M3, or even an Audi S4.
I drove a GTR on a track in vegas last summer, and handling was superb for its weight. the front did not push, and you could basically steer the car using its power...

I agree I am doing it wrong on this specific car, with little weight in the front...

s4senna

stealth is right about getting on power early... an extra 50 hp, or less weight would help alot right at that moment

doberdog

The biggest difference is the engine is in the back! Trail brake and unwind the wheel while applying power progressively. Tires are a big factor, tire pressure and alignment.

sds

@race911: you are so skilled man, i envy you!

geolab

try a front strut brace as well as the above advice.