Lorenfb

"Same car, same dyno, same operator. Only difference is the engine management."

So! Hardly proves anything. You don't need to change the ECM, just 'push' the ignition timing
by varying the ignition maps. This has been discussed years ago on the 964 forum. That's
the marketing scam used to sell an air mass sensor mod for AFM engines (911 3.2/964s),
i.e. tweak the timing and account for the 'performance' change as being the mod. The naive
always 'buy' into the scam.

fuch

I like it when people think out the box....well done juha g...I'm up for a pre v/r if and when..

Juha G

Loren, you are right in that majority of the torque gain was from "pushing" the ignition timing, some of it from fuel mapping (the car was running lean with the stock unit at WOT, perhaps can be pointed to a bad MAF?) and some more power was made with proper cooling (additional fan blowing directly into the engine bay).
However, tell me how you advance the ignition on a 1996? Not gonna happen, unless you swap a 97 ECU. That's why I have Motec, and that's why my friend is working on this proto.

So bottom line is; is there power to be gained by re-mapping? Answer is yes.

Of course with a high cr air cooled engine one has to be on top of the things when advancing the timing. But isn't it nice when you have full control over what is happening?

mnmasotto

Juha,
Please ignore Loren. He is a local annoyance here and at Pelican. Keep up the good work. This is what keeps these boards interesting. Looking forward to further posts by you and other contributing members.
Thanks Mark

djmojo

...is this a cool place or what...?

DJ

ilko

I disagree. Dissent in patriotic

Loren is very knowledgeable and an asset to this community. He has a particular view of how things need to be done and I don't fault him for that one bit.

At the same time Juha's been quick with explanations to Loren's objections. I find this to be a great way of debating and coming to a solution. No name calling, etc.

Kudos to all involved in this project

Kika

Juha,

Would it be possible for a choice of maps to be made available for some of us non-track types, but want better performance? I have no idea how to modify a map, or even where I would start.

axl911

Juha,

Maybe dumb question here, but what value are being used to calculate load? MAF voltage?

Wondering if this box could be used to control ignition and fuel for a supercharged or turbo'ed car.

Also, I asked earlier but don't recall a response. Does the box have knock detection/control?

Lorenfb

So this is what's being used (MS3 processor), right?

Features:

(Based on full featured MS3+MS3X+V3.57)
Speed-density, alpha-n or MAF for fuelling calculations
16x16 fuel tables in 0.1% steps with true interpolation and movable rows/columns
16x16 spark tables in 0.1 degree steps with true interpolation and movable rows/columns
Wall-wetting transient fuel control for better driveability
On board datalogging to SDcard (max 333Hz sample rate)
Tuning by serial or built-in USB-serial port.
8 channels sequential fuel (hi-z injectors or low-z with external resistors)
2 additional fuel channels (hi-z or low-z)
8 channels sequential spark (logic level output)
6 channels mid current output for small solenoids or relays
2 'spare' conditioned 0-5V analogue inputs (+2 more raw)
Two wideband oxygen sensor input (external controller required)
(Up to eight widebands supported via external data capture)
GM-style stepper idle control
2 and 3 wire PWM idle control
Closed loop idle control
Closed loop mixture control - ideally with wideband
Closed loop boost control
Various boost control systems (gear, time, speed based)
Two stage variable nitrous control
2 step type launch control
CAN communications to interconnect other Megasquirt products e.g. transmission controller
Supports external data capture boards (e.g. for external EGT boards)
EGT data support (with external amplifier)
Staged injection
Dual fuel (e.g. LPG)
Table switching, (mainly for dual fuel use)
Water/Meth injection
Individual cylinder injector trim
Injector phase timing
Individual cylinder spark trim
Support for numerous OEM trigger wheel patterns.
Magnetic (VR), Hall, Opto crank sensor input
Magnetic (VR), Hall, Opto cam sensor input

No knock control (a very key feature for optimum performance) which Porsche Bosch
had in the mid '80s as used on the 959 and 962 and not available on the MS3 nor Motec
in 2012. The MS3 is a great unit to use in a high school auto shop to teach fundamental
engine tuning.

The processor board on the left is the one previously posted, right?
The one on the right is the MS3 interface board to be replaced and customized for the 993, right?

evoderby

Loren, once again you seem to know exactly what not to do....

.....such comments remain pretty much useless as long as you keep refraining from adding something constructive into the discussion.

Juha G

I agree. Loren seems very knowledgeable. His approach could be a little less cynical though....

On identical cars you can use same mapping. But of course best results will be achieved with custom tune.


At the moment only Alpha-N (throttle flap angle) but it is possible to add a MAP sensor. The sensor is usually physically in the ECU and you need to run a vacuum line from the intake into the ECU. I suggested my friend that it is better to have the MAP sensor in the engine bay to avoid running this vacuum line all the way to the ECU. Now he has used the original MAF pins (wires on the original harness) for the MAP. So you just buy a MAP sensor (a few $$), and clip it onto the MAF connector (get a spare connector so no need to cut any wires). and run a vacuum hose from the intake to the sensor.

So yes, you can definately use it on a turbo or supercharged car.

No knock control as it is quite complex system and quite useless for a car that gets only one type of fuel.


Yes, that is the processor. With the MS3 kit you also get the powerboard and the signal board. But the components in the MS kit are cheap and unrealiable. So my friend only uses the processor, everything else is his own architecture with high quality components (experience from BMW ECU's).

And no, there is no knock control. For Motec you can buy a separate 1000Euro knock control processor but even then you have to "teach" the processor to read knock signals correctly. Like I mentioned alrady, quite useless on a car that uses only one kind of fuel.
A good tuner will be able to dial in safe ignition maps by ear and use of stetoscope. My tuner has built and tuned engines for 20 years and the Porsche engine is nothing extra-ordinary. He mostly works with race and rally car engines with the rallycross engines producing around 800hp from 2-liter displacement. He has never had issues with knocking.

Of course it is totaly different if you need the ECU to adapt to bad fuels, like the factory did...

Lorenfb

"such comments remain pretty much useless as long as you keep refraining from adding something constructive into the discussion."

- evoderby -

And what's your great knowledge contribution, e.g. Maybe comment on the best 993 polish, right!

"No knock control as it is quite complex system and quite useless for a car that gets only one type of fuel."

Rather very short sighted! Knock control not only has effect with various fuels, but also for
varying timing for different loads and engine temperatures. It is to optimize timing under
ALL engine operating conditions.

"A good tuner will be able to dial in safe ignition maps by ear and use of stetoscope."

That's what's called static ignition timing/turning. Using knock control is a dynamic ongoing
ignition timing (tuning if you will) by the processor to maximize performance. Without knock
control, a margin of safety (as stated above) has to be incorporated into the timing maps for
the various unknowns, e.g. engine load climbing a hill on a hot day, irrespective of the octane.
Thus compromising maximum torque. That's why all EOM engines now days use knock control,
and NOT for just potential octane problems. Porsche surely didn't use knock control on the
Porsche 962 at Le Mans for potential octane problems.

This thread is sounding more like a 'performance' chip sell!

trophy

Loren you never provide any useful information, right?

You seem to know alot about ECu's and engine management but have no clue on how to communicate like a normal human being, right?

There are also a bunch of things you don't know, right?

You always come in on threads, offer no sound advice, claim everyone is "pushing ignition" and then say its a chip sell, right?

And funnily enough, "static ignition tuning" is what most F1, Grand Am, LeMan, WRC cars use as their tuning strategy. Of course these guys no nothing about getting performance out of their engines because they don't use knock control, right?

PLEASE LOREN GO AWAY AND LEAVE HIS THREAD ALONE!

ca993twin

I, for one, am interested in following this thread. I feel that Loren has provided good, if cynical, data for all of us to digest. I hope that this doesn't discourage Juha from moving ahead with this project and continuing to develop and communicate the product. Lets all take a breath. This is great info, and we should encourage everyone to participate. Axl911 asked a very good question about knock sensors... that had totally escaped me until he brought it up.

In California, we only have access to 91 octane fuel, although once in a while 100 octane fuel is available. We also have lots of elevation variation. Personally, I'm concerned about the lack of knock control. But, I'm here to learn. Please... carry on.

Lorenfb

"And funnily enough, "static ignition tuning" is what most F1, Grand Am, LeMan, WRC cars use as their tuning strategy."

- trophy -

And what website site had that, maybe Pelican or a 'performance' chip website, please?
And you can say for a fact that in all those race venues none of the engines use
knock control?

"you never provide any useful information, right?"

- trophy -

And what have your contributions to this thread been, trophy?

Maybe you (trophy) can describe for us:
1. Why Bosch installed a second dedicated microprocessor in the 964 DME
ECM for knock control if just for poor fuel grades when in the past they
used a simple jumper and/or a rotary switch for different fuel markets.
2. Why was a twin plug approach AND knock control used starting with the
964 with its much higher CR than the early 911 3.2.
3. How the knock control system determines which cylinder
to retard and why individual cylinder knock control was necessary
if just for varying octanes.
4. Why Porsche used knock control on the 962 & the 959
in the mid '80s on cars that were NOT for the general daily
drivers and had controlled octane fuel values.
5. Why does an OEM even specify an octane value if knock control is just
for varying octanes and to just compensate for it and lacks other utility?
6. And why would anyone want to drive a performance car, e.g. 993, and have
to be concerned about where to find the required octane for a given turning
especially on a long trip where unknown & mixed octanes maybe the only
available fuels and not have knock control? Anyone taken a long drive lately
in areas where there are few gas stations for miles and of questionable fuel
quality?