Latest Singer - the real deal now...
11-29-2011, 09:50 AM
#46
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The thing is gorgeous and probably is a lot of fun BUT it is a Frankenstein hot rod. Bits of this and that welded together. Can't compare to RUF which has the long history, close assocation with Porsche and official manufacturer designation.
This is not and will never be a real collectible and I doubt there is any appreciation to be had over the short or long term
This is not and will never be a real collectible and I doubt there is any appreciation to be had over the short or long term
If these Singer cars at some point get that sort of status (which they at this point don't have), they can become collectible.
I'm personally more of an old school type of person, I think a model A hot rod with steel body and an old 30's, 40's etc. engine is way better than any of those fiberglass creations with a recent Vette engine ever can be so for me, these SInger car never will be as cool as real 70's 911s with 70's engine but there is a lot of appeal for cars like this which are basically modern cars that look old.
11-29-2011, 10:42 AM
#47
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COP's and such
To me the idle control and MAP correction are the main advantages of the new installation, we discussed the use of this on the ITB set up and actually supplied all the parts to fit to the development ITB system but obviously there were bigger questions to be answered before we could make it happen.
The other improvements look to be advantages of the Pectel system in comparison to the limited Motec M48 ecu that was used on the first 9m engines - and I hasten to add that the M48 was selected for commercial reasons at the prototype stage. We've investigated alternative systems for future 9m air & water cooled engine projects and have decided to work with a specialist to custom code a new ecu specifically for flat 6 applications. It will be interesting to compare notes some time next year!
The only aspect I would have concerns over is the use of a COP system in an aircooled application; we could not find coils rated for continuous use with cylinder head temperatures of 200C.
The other improvements look to be advantages of the Pectel system in comparison to the limited Motec M48 ecu that was used on the first 9m engines - and I hasten to add that the M48 was selected for commercial reasons at the prototype stage. We've investigated alternative systems for future 9m air & water cooled engine projects and have decided to work with a specialist to custom code a new ecu specifically for flat 6 applications. It will be interesting to compare notes some time next year!
The only aspect I would have concerns over is the use of a COP system in an aircooled application; we could not find coils rated for continuous use with cylinder head temperatures of 200C.
You're completely right that the MAP correction and IAC being benefits; the COPs are Denso units originally designed for motorcycles. I've used them for many years on high-temp applications with no failures. For aero purposes, our Superbike customers run very sealed fairings with sustained temps of over 150C for an hour; our land speed customers see greater than that. One of the other upgrades is we are now running both oil and cylinder head temp on the Singer car and I'm impressed at how it runs quite cool - even in vigorous, high-load dyno testing, we never saw cylinder head temps exceed 130C.
One of the issues with the M48 is it lacks internal ignition drivers, meaning you'd have to run 3 x 4 channel igniters to drive coils, or you'd have to drive "smart coils" which are not as robust. The Pectel is one of the few ECUs available with 12 internal ignition drivers, so the heat is managed at the ECU instead of the coil. This is a big benefit. For other applications, we've used MOTEC & Vi-PEC ECUs with good success; since this is what we do I have the luxury of evaluating a wide variety of hardware before choosing the right one for a particular application.
PM' me sometime, I really like the work you guys did and it would be interesting to compare notes and perhaps work together in the future. Do you ever make it stateside? I'm due to visit Cosworth Electronics in Cambridge early next year.
-Neel
11-29-2011, 08:40 PM
#48
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she got (9m) engine envy on display with "Song 1"
11-30-2011, 05:33 AM
#50
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Nice photos Jager.
The air filter set up was interesting. I tested & supplied the engine with plain trumpets, an airbox & single foam filter over each bank. This set up was changed at Singer for the one in the photos which they had made with CNC machined horns and screw-on dome filters, purely to replicate the look of an early RSR engine. Looks absolutely awesome.... but unfortunately they also cost 15hp on the dyno.
Belt set up is a Clewitt poly-rib with custom bottom pulley for GT3 crank. We make a similar conversion for the new 9m Race engines which does not require engine case modification to fit.
The air filter set up was interesting. I tested & supplied the engine with plain trumpets, an airbox & single foam filter over each bank. This set up was changed at Singer for the one in the photos which they had made with CNC machined horns and screw-on dome filters, purely to replicate the look of an early RSR engine. Looks absolutely awesome.... but unfortunately they also cost 15hp on the dyno.
Belt set up is a Clewitt poly-rib with custom bottom pulley for GT3 crank. We make a similar conversion for the new 9m Race engines which does not require engine case modification to fit.
11-30-2011, 05:35 AM
#51
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Colin,
You're completely right that the MAP correction and IAC being benefits; the COPs are Denso units originally designed for motorcycles. I've used them for many years on high-temp applications with no failures. For aero purposes, our Superbike customers run very sealed fairings with sustained temps of over 150C for an hour; our land speed customers see greater than that. One of the other upgrades is we are now running both oil and cylinder head temp on the Singer car and I'm impressed at how it runs quite cool - even in vigorous, high-load dyno testing, we never saw cylinder head temps exceed 130C.
One of the issues with the M48 is it lacks internal ignition drivers, meaning you'd have to run 3 x 4 channel igniters to drive coils, or you'd have to drive "smart coils" which are not as robust. The Pectel is one of the few ECUs available with 12 internal ignition drivers, so the heat is managed at the ECU instead of the coil. This is a big benefit. For other applications, we've used MOTEC & Vi-PEC ECUs with good success; since this is what we do I have the luxury of evaluating a wide variety of hardware before choosing the right one for a particular application.
PM' me sometime, I really like the work you guys did and it would be interesting to compare notes and perhaps work together in the future. Do you ever make it stateside? I'm due to visit Cosworth Electronics in Cambridge early next year.
-Neel
You're completely right that the MAP correction and IAC being benefits; the COPs are Denso units originally designed for motorcycles. I've used them for many years on high-temp applications with no failures. For aero purposes, our Superbike customers run very sealed fairings with sustained temps of over 150C for an hour; our land speed customers see greater than that. One of the other upgrades is we are now running both oil and cylinder head temp on the Singer car and I'm impressed at how it runs quite cool - even in vigorous, high-load dyno testing, we never saw cylinder head temps exceed 130C.
One of the issues with the M48 is it lacks internal ignition drivers, meaning you'd have to run 3 x 4 channel igniters to drive coils, or you'd have to drive "smart coils" which are not as robust. The Pectel is one of the few ECUs available with 12 internal ignition drivers, so the heat is managed at the ECU instead of the coil. This is a big benefit. For other applications, we've used MOTEC & Vi-PEC ECUs with good success; since this is what we do I have the luxury of evaluating a wide variety of hardware before choosing the right one for a particular application.
PM' me sometime, I really like the work you guys did and it would be interesting to compare notes and perhaps work together in the future. Do you ever make it stateside? I'm due to visit Cosworth Electronics in Cambridge early next year.
-Neel
11-30-2011, 12:14 PM
#52
I've driven both cars, and touched up the tune on the 9M motors after the cars were built - we have crap 91 octane fuel here. I also tuned the Cosworth motors and supply all the electronics, so I am pretty biased. I think the 9M motors were fantastic; the builds were beautiful with a lot of attention to detail. There wasn't any more power in the Cosworth motors, but the driveability was improved. The manifold did allow for a flatter torque curve, and the motor is production-car consistent. I can only accurately comment on the engine management differences and our reasoning/benefits:
1. Individual coil-on-plug ignition which allowed us more accurate timing control and better spark energy which showed in the ability to run a leaner idle and part throttle cruise.
2. Dual wideband NTK L1H1 O2 sensors with the ability to trim fuel bank to bank with much faster response and accuracy than the old Bosch LSM-11's on the 9M.
3. Closed loop idle-air control using a larger-than-stock Bosch dual-driver IAC valve results in better constancy in startup and idle.
4. MAP/TPS blend calibration for more consistent and accurate fueling during idle & part throttle operation.
5. Closed loop knock control with an individual sensor on each bank.
6. The fuel delivery system less pressure pulsingl through a damper and more modern injectors.
On the dyno, you don't see a big difference, but on the road, the newer car is more civilized and more responsive at the same time. There is a startup idle of 1200RPM that drops to 900 depending on oil temp, cylinder head temp and run time. Turning on lights/AC/etc doesn't effect it. The motor lugs incredibly - someone can loaf around at 1500RPM and plant the throttle with no drama. The motor pulls cleanly & slowly at first, picking up revs quickly over 3000 until it nails the limiter. Since it builds power all the way to the limiter, and the limiter is progressive and forgiving, you find yourself touching it (7600 right now) all the time. The engine is more responsive to throttle and more "crisp." The knock control only pulls timing out of the cylinders that need it, which combined with the leaner mixtures results in improved part-throttle response.
I don't want to take away anything from what 9M did - their motors are incredible. If one of the older cars come back, it would be nice to retrofit it with the system we've now developed to get a proper A/B comparison.
I find injected air-cooled Porsche flat 6's really benefit from the more modern fuel injection systems as they are fairly knock limited (especially on pump gas.) More accurate ignition & fuel control allow one to run near the limit with a larger margin of safety. Turbo motors even more so - some of the 993 turbo motors we did were much more responsive and clean off boost after similar upgrades. I've been hoping someone comes to us with a higher compression turbo build just to see if we could manage it.
-Neel
1. Individual coil-on-plug ignition which allowed us more accurate timing control and better spark energy which showed in the ability to run a leaner idle and part throttle cruise.
2. Dual wideband NTK L1H1 O2 sensors with the ability to trim fuel bank to bank with much faster response and accuracy than the old Bosch LSM-11's on the 9M.
3. Closed loop idle-air control using a larger-than-stock Bosch dual-driver IAC valve results in better constancy in startup and idle.
4. MAP/TPS blend calibration for more consistent and accurate fueling during idle & part throttle operation.
5. Closed loop knock control with an individual sensor on each bank.
6. The fuel delivery system less pressure pulsingl through a damper and more modern injectors.
On the dyno, you don't see a big difference, but on the road, the newer car is more civilized and more responsive at the same time. There is a startup idle of 1200RPM that drops to 900 depending on oil temp, cylinder head temp and run time. Turning on lights/AC/etc doesn't effect it. The motor lugs incredibly - someone can loaf around at 1500RPM and plant the throttle with no drama. The motor pulls cleanly & slowly at first, picking up revs quickly over 3000 until it nails the limiter. Since it builds power all the way to the limiter, and the limiter is progressive and forgiving, you find yourself touching it (7600 right now) all the time. The engine is more responsive to throttle and more "crisp." The knock control only pulls timing out of the cylinders that need it, which combined with the leaner mixtures results in improved part-throttle response.
I don't want to take away anything from what 9M did - their motors are incredible. If one of the older cars come back, it would be nice to retrofit it with the system we've now developed to get a proper A/B comparison.
I find injected air-cooled Porsche flat 6's really benefit from the more modern fuel injection systems as they are fairly knock limited (especially on pump gas.) More accurate ignition & fuel control allow one to run near the limit with a larger margin of safety. Turbo motors even more so - some of the 993 turbo motors we did were much more responsive and clean off boost after similar upgrades. I've been hoping someone comes to us with a higher compression turbo build just to see if we could manage it.
-Neel
Thanks for sharing this input Neel! Very interesting indeed. Some more questions:
I understand the potential advantage of a variable length plenum inlet lower down in the rev range. Do you feel the GT3 variable length plenum will be able to match individual trumpet top power output on more aggressively cammed engines giving their power higher up the rev range i.e. the 400HP variety of the Singer engine?
On the subject of knock control, are you able to share some of the Pectel strategies to counter knock i.e. trim back timing per bank/per single cilinder/static timing pull by fixed degree/dynamic control towards threshold.
I am also interested in learning how you dial in the engines sound character to be recognised as knock, vs. valve train noise/piston slap etc.
Final question, I see Cosworth uses CNC equipment to flow cilinder heads. On the inlets this poses no problem, the ceramic linered exhaust ports don't allow such an approach I imagine. Are these machined at all, if so by hand?
Hope you can share some more insights on the above...so that I can sleep again;-)
Thanks & rgds
Harald
11-30-2011, 12:42 PM
#53
I'd say "jury is still out there" on that one, ever seen what Chip Foose stuff sells for?
If these Singer cars at some point get that sort of status (which they at this point don't have), they can become collectible.
I'm personally more of an old school type of person, I think a model A hot rod with steel body and an old 30's, 40's etc. engine is way better than any of those fiberglass creations with a recent Vette engine ever can be so for me, these SInger car never will be as cool as real 70's 911s with 70's engine but there is a lot of appeal for cars like this which are basically modern cars that look old.
If these Singer cars at some point get that sort of status (which they at this point don't have), they can become collectible.
I'm personally more of an old school type of person, I think a model A hot rod with steel body and an old 30's, 40's etc. engine is way better than any of those fiberglass creations with a recent Vette engine ever can be so for me, these SInger car never will be as cool as real 70's 911s with 70's engine but there is a lot of appeal for cars like this which are basically modern cars that look old.
11-30-2011, 04:05 PM
#54
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Airboxes and Knock
Thanks for sharing this input Neel! Very interesting indeed. Some more questions:
I understand the potential advantage of a variable length plenum inlet lower down in the rev range. Do you feel the GT3 variable length plenum will be able to match individual trumpet top power output on more aggressively cammed engines giving their power higher up the rev range i.e. the 400HP variety of the Singer engine?
I understand the potential advantage of a variable length plenum inlet lower down in the rev range. Do you feel the GT3 variable length plenum will be able to match individual trumpet top power output on more aggressively cammed engines giving their power higher up the rev range i.e. the 400HP variety of the Singer engine?
That said, airbox design is no simple task, and individual trumpets work better more often than the majority of airboxes out there. And they look SO much better!
On the subject of knock control, are you able to share some of the Pectel strategies to counter knock i.e. trim back timing per bank/per single cilinder/static timing pull by fixed degree/dynamic control towards threshold.
I am also interested in learning how you dial in the engines sound character to be recognised as knock, vs. valve train noise/piston slap etc.
This works fantastic for det-limited motors. We picked up well over 100hp on turbocharged offshore powerboat V8s by having the det control trimming only the necessary cylinders, and have has similar success with turbo Vipers.
After this experience with the Singer car, I'm convinced there's real benefit to knock control on these motors. We're developing some knock systems for 964/993 motors that, while not as complex, should be a lot more cost effective and provide a good margin of safety.
Final question, I see Cosworth uses CNC equipment to flow cilinder heads. On the inlets this poses no problem, the ceramic linered exhaust ports don't allow such an approach I imagine. Are these machined at all, if so by hand?
-Neel
11-30-2011, 11:07 PM
#55
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Singer
Thanks for the links. I love reading about the Singers.
Here are a couple of links regarding the new and vastly improved Singer that was launched in LA a few days ago:
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/maga...0.asp?id=15542
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...by-singer.html
Well done Maz....
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/maga...0.asp?id=15542
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...by-singer.html
Well done Maz....
12-01-2011, 05:17 AM
#56
Thanks again for your input Neel! Very interesting indeed to see an aftermarket package being able to perform individual cilinder knock control, especially in such a dynamic-threshold approaching manner.
12-01-2011, 05:55 PM
#58
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12-01-2011, 06:10 PM
#59
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Yep the new singer, on Post #16 it has a mock up of the exhaust without headers, just would like to see the finished product from the under side.
I have a center out on my car and need to tone down the sound for road use and was wondering how they integrated the extra mufflers into their system to keep the noise level down.
I have a center out on my car and need to tone down the sound for road use and was wondering how they integrated the extra mufflers into their system to keep the noise level down.