dmw

That's typically only for real property (land). The OP will need to file in California. But if he wins in small claims court he should be able to get his costs (filing fee and cost to fly to the hearing). I don't think an ebay transaction (ie, internet sale) allows a buyer to sue in their home jurisdiction. This is not legal advice.

civerson4

I've filed a few small claims cases--and I've had to file in the court district where the transaction took place--which likely means you are filing the case in the Palm Springs/LA Quinta area. This is +/- 1.5 hours from me--but I am also happy to hand deliver the paperwork to the court (what a great excuse to exercise the 993!)

Mike wa so helpful in selling me my car (and patiently answering all my questions), it is the least I can do. Good luck Mike. If you still want to go the lawyer route, I'll keep asking for referrals.

993944S2

Someone asked earlier, but I am curious what you could sue for? What are the damages? I can understand the value of the car is less with a TMU lable but how much? Is it really worth the effort?

Arena993

Chad:

Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate it.

Mike

993944S:

Well it's worth the effort to me. The car is most definitely IMHO worth less due to the TMU. That is what the suit is for. As for the value of the car there is no way to prove the miles. What if the car has 150,000 on it, is it worth what I paid?

Mike

murfysflaw

Mike,

I'm curious, and you may not want to answer here, publicly, but are you going to be able to really enjoy the car with the uncertainty about it? I just wonder if it would always nag at you... everytime something goes wrong, will it float through your mind, wondering how many miles are really on the car?

I hate this for you, not just because of the loss of value, but because you were looking for this car.. this color... etc., and it turned out this way. I know myself, it'd drive me crazy and I'd probably not enjoy the car as much as I otherwise would have. That's just me though and I'm not always the most sane.

Good luck to you on it. If you do decide to part with her, I'm becoming very partial to that color lately. Who knows what my work situation will be, but even if I have to get rid of mine soon, I'll be getting another.

Geoffrey

You will want to make arrangements for an expert with the abilty to determine the difference in valuation to either come to court with you, or write a notorized letter for you to bring to court. This could simply be a Porsche shop, but they should discuss the math behind it. In NY, cars over 10 years old show an odometer reading of "exempt".

Leucadia

Lots of great advice here. I would add also that this almost happend to me during my search for my 993. I found a nice triple black '95 from a private owner and the PPI passed, i was 'this' close to buying it, even the carfax was good. the day before I bought it, I found it was TMU. My mechanic who did a PPI on it read the Engine Hours from the CPU, and divided by 35mph (the average mph during the lifetime of a car). Turns out the 67K mile car was really over 100K miles car....

Before your court apperance, ask your mechanic to read the Engine Hours from the CPU and calculate actual miles on that engine. Then, use the milage depreciation chart posted on rennlist many times before for 933's in order to calculate the damages in terms of dollars which the seller owes you. Show those two peices of paper to the Judge. Case closed.

Jetmech

If the miles don't click, then guilt you must admit. Cheezy, but im still laughing. Take a deep breath...it will work out. Just get him to small claims court...The judge will sort it out. he will look stupid staying..."I had no idea".

Mark in Baltimore

Excellent advice.

race911

As someone who was casually interested in this car, but got the funny feeling after an email back from the seller, I'm curious what the actual dollar amount in question will make you happy? It's not like you paid $35K for the thing. I get the "I've been wronged" part of the situation......... Unless YOU have visions of this being the impedimenin making it into a $30K+ car, economy notwithstanding.

(Just an aside here, on the PPI angle. Way back when I had my shop, and non-functioning odos were almost the norm on the junky 2.2/2.4/2.7L cars I'd be checking out, I had an "odo in/odo out" place on the sheet I gave the prospective buyer. Funny how many times the numbers were the same!)

Arena993

Thanks everyone for all the great advice and support. I have all my ducks in a row. Without revealing too much There is a mountain of proof and so on. I think anyone with a 1/2 brain would have a hard time believing that in 2.5 years of the odo being broken he never noticed.

Geoffrey: Good point and well taken, after a 10 year period the car is "exempt" on miles, but there is also a place on the title that is to be checked if the true miles are unknown. Eexmpt status and TMU are 2 completely different animals. In the words of Jetmech, "If the miles don't click, then guilt you must admit." Odo laws are very specific federal or state stautes.

And to answer the few that say "let it be", or "just go on" let me say this, if I stop this guy here and now he probably won't do it in the future. And think about this what if in the future the guy being taken advantage of was YOU? Just something to think about an I do appreciate all coments or advice. Thanks

Mike

Mike

RallyJon

And for the people who are asking how you calculate damages where the price paid is close to the market price for a car with the "likely" true mileage?

Not saying there wasn't gross misrepresentation here--and there should be some penalty for that--but what damages do you claim when you paid about the right amount for a 993 with what turns out to be the actual mileage? Do you say: "I thought I got a steal, but it turns out I paid fair price, so pay me"?

briefescape

What are your qualifications that makes you an authority on what is a fair price ? Just curious because it maybe that Mike may not had a fair $ amount for a TMU 993 and would of pass on it . The fraud did not give that " fair " choice

Cheers Guy

RallyJon

That's a good argument in favor of simply reversing the transaction.

But it's much harder to put a relative $ figure on this. Could be (hypothetically) that the price Mike would pay for a known mileage car is higher than the market in general, but that Mike would pay much less for a TMU car than the market in general. So are damages based on the buyer's perception, the market, or some statute?

murfysflaw

I'm not sure it matters whether the price is "fair" for a car w/ known mileage vs TMU if the seller represented it as accurate mileage and knew it wasn't. That's the point in my mind...