eclou

I tend to trust Doug's explanations as he has lifelong experience in the field. I was waiting for his input before tossing my cases of M1 out.

Doug Hillary

Hi,
RallyJon - It is not over to me to consider the matter as reported. It is a case of archived and statistical data that tells a story.

Many individual engine have "problems" of one sort or another and until these are recorded and analysed a reliable failure pattern cannot be established. For instance in NA during the early 2000s Porsche systematically gathered Used Oil Aanalysis results from their Dealers for such purposes

In my own case (with expensive diesel engines) I have had faulty roller followers and shafts, cams that lacked a suitable hardening process, ring packs that were underquality, turbochargers that failed and cam gears without suitable hardening
In some of these cases the lubricant could have been judged as a suspect. Factory statistical data and UOAs showed that was not the case

It is very easy to take one or a few engines as "the sample" but until use patterns, service history and the like is known it may be an issue unrelated to the likes of a lubricant. Many faulty camshafts have been produced, faulty ring sets too and the like, so careful analysis over a large sample base is always needed

My comments about lubricants apply specifically to those Approved and Listed by the Factory. I have never heard of meaningful statistical data that proves that an Approved Lubricant has not done its job regardless of the Brand

I suspect that many people have used a substandard lubricant in their engine with sad consequences. Many have used the correct lubricant too but skipped oil changes or service adjustments etc. and then incorrectly blamed it when it failed!

Back to the Thread's Topic M1!
M1 15w-50 is a suitable lubricant for use in 993 engines if that is the viscosity one wishes to use and either version has suitable Anti-Wear additives in the correct quantities. It is not GF-4 rated

Regards
Doug

Robert-VanBC

There is a great article in January's Panorama (page 79-80)

jimbo3

I'm just as vexed. Porsche Motorsports reportedly uses Elf, Porsche dealers are told M1 and Doug, Steve and Charles are all far more knowledgable about this than I could ever hope to be and even they don't seem to have a consensus, so what's an idiot like me supposed to do? In the end, if Steve's extensive real world experience on this particular engine shows wear problems that go away when a different oil is used and there is no downside, I guess I'd have to go with that, other technicalities notwithstanding.

Am I off base with that rationale?

-Jim

jungleboy

OK, ok, ok! So, if we were to summarize this whole thread.... Seems like Mobil 1 is fine, if you want to continue using it?! - Doug.

But with possible wear issues seen in some cases, you can't go wrong (i.e. you're not in turn hurting the engine by using) and might consider going with Swepco or Brad Penn?! - Steve, Doug & some old guys from Stuttgart.

Is this a fair assessment?

Doug, do you have any qualms with the Swepco and Brad Penn type semi syn based oils being used in 993s?

RallyJon

In a timely bit of irony, the shop that just replaced my clutch (C4=engine drop=involuntary oil change) used... Mobil1 0W40.

Sure did seem to run smoothly when cold, and warm up faster, and rev quicker... Hmm.

I had been running the Delvac1 5W40.

Analog Theory

no irony there....our street cars all run M1 0W-40 including my own 993. Couldn't be happier. I don't deny that 15W-50 is also suitable but I don't beleive for a minute that the factory doesn't know best (approved oils) and/or that there's some large conspiracy perpetuated by all those engineers to first build an incredible sports car, well made...and to last - only to then trick you in to running your barely broken in model on a less than adequete lubricant so as to burn it out sooner and hence - buy another one. Just the throught of it is ridiculous.

Just my two cents.

jimbo3

The factory may constrained by regulations which limit choices in what it uses and recommends. No conspiracy on the manufacturer's part- just living inside the regs. An individual owner may not be constrainted by those regs. I get that in my business quite a bit.

jungleboy

+1 - Yeah, it doesn't seem like anyone is suggesting conspiracy theory here... sounds like regulations have changed, as they always do, and the oil companies designed their products to comply. And Porsche puts out the requirements for its current production cars that also comply with current regs. I don't suppose they're investing too much time and effort to keep up with their 10 years and older 911s. And correct me if I am wrong, but there aren't any air cooled production cars rolling out the assembly line these days and therefore not too many companies are readily concerned about how current oils compositions are directly affecting the older engines. Other than knowledgeable folks that still operate, work on and perhaps race these older 911s, I don't know where else to turn to.

matt777

Does Porsche specifically recommend Mobil M1 for 993 engines or is this just a general recommendation meaning it may only apply to the latest water cooled engines?

RallyJon

Speaking of Mobil1, I was just at Walmart and they had gallons of the Delvac1 5W40 (SL not SM) for $22.23! I paid $28/gal by the case from the local ExxonMobil distributor.

0W40 was $5.67/qt at Wally world too.

BobbyT

IMHO, Jerry Woods' endorsement of Swepco is not to be discounted...my case of Swepco 306 20w-50 should arrive today.

Doug Hillary

Hi,
Jordan - Your experience is mirrored everywhere including Porsche Factory Engineering personnel.
M1 0w-40 is probably one of the very best lubricants ever developed at any price. (It is very expensive here in OZ at around $100 for 5 litres)
Its Complex ester and SuperSyn base structure is the reason - and the latest and excellent Anti-Wear additives combined with the minimising of the ZDDP additive family all add to the package

jungleboy - You have NO worries in using the correct viscosity version of M1 (0w-40, 5w-40 or 5w-50 (15w-50 in the US).
Please avoid using any ILSAC GF-4 conforming lubricant of any Brand in you car!

I have no particular "dislike" for any modern lubricant that formally complies with current ACEA (or reluctantly API) standards. The 100 or so lubricants on Porsche's Approval List from about 30 Suppliers for instance will all perform at almost identical levels. There may be marginal variances, these will NOT translate into significant differences in engine life when clinically analysed in the passage of time and distance

The two lubricants you specifically mention will NOT be signficantly "better" than any others of a similar structure or than the excellent HDEOs such as Shell's Rotella T Multigrade 15w-40, Delvac 1300 15w-40 or Delo 400 15w-40 and etc with the latest CJ-4/SM API ratings

Some normal (not HDEO) mineral lubricants can show some undesirable characteristics when used in high performance turbo-charged engines

matt777 - Mobil 1 is clearly only one of the 100 or so lubricants Approved by Porsche for the 993. There are four M1 (synthetic) products (0w-40(2), 5w-40(1), 5w-50), three Mobil Semi synthetic 5w-40 products plus Esso Ultron 5w-40 synthetic. One of M1 products may be a rebadged version of the excellent M1 TDT 5w-40 (Delvac 1 5w-40). All (well, any) of these lubricants can be used in your Porsche with confidence!

Jimbo3 - The only constraints on lubricants being Approved by Porsche is supply, local/WW availability and the desire of the Oil Company or Blender to be on the List. Porsche like the other Euro manufacturers wish for more marketplace choice not less. What they use at the Factory as the initial fill is a Commercial decision taken off their List and etc - usually more that one supplier is on Contract. The same applies to Dealerships and etc. Mobil has a huge R&D Unit that has Engineering ties to Porsche, MB, Detroit Diesel, CAT and etc. As Castrol has the same R&D Unit working with VW-Audi, BMW and etc

RallyJon - Good choice!!

Regards
Doug

jimbo3

I'm more confused now than ever. You say that Porsche is only being constrained by supply, local/WW availability and the desire of the Oil Company or Blender to be on the List, so why not simply add back the Z and P that they removed?

I thought that oil manufacturers were changing formulations to meet governmental regs (constraint) and auto manufacturers need different formulations (constraint) to work with the latest technologies that they have, in part, to meet environmental regs and, in part, to save the newer cats. To quote the tech article in the Jan 08 Pano (pg 79), "The specifications are changed from time to time as both the government and manufacturer requirements change" and (pg 80), "The continual reduction in Z and P additives in the newer motor oils now makes the use of 0W-40 SM synthetic questionable in the earlier air-cooled engines without some additive" and (pg 80), "For owners of earlier models who want to use synthetic oil, use of the higher viscosity all-season oils such as 15W-40 or 15W-50 MAY retain adequate Z and P levels, but ongoing reevaluation of available oil formulations and analyses (such as...API SM/CF...) WILL BE NECESSARY AS THE SITUATION EVOLVES". (Caps are mine. Not yelling, just wanting to emphasize.)

I'd just as soon buy the lastest M1 15/50 as it's a whole lot easier to get and somewhat less expensive, but even Pano seems to say that the jury is out on the stuff.

Bottom line- Am I hurting anything by going with Brad Penn 20/50 (or Swepco 306 20/50) while the jury deliberates???

My head hurts.

jungleboy

+1