slapshot

We hear so many different theories on valve guides, CEL, etc. I wanted to toss this out: I had the opportunity to discuss this item with my wrench this week, one of the best in the business for both consumer and race P-Cars, especially our 993's. The shop is a household name to many on this board. Honest as the day is long. I asked, based on what they see coming in, now that our cars are hitting 10+ years old, are things going wrong, top ends "genuinely" needing to be done, etc? The answer was unequivocably "Yes". And they did not mean, coming in to try to squeek by the smog tests via a weekend DIY SAI flush. They meant, the valves are worn, engine parts wear. It is a natural happening and organic to our 993s.

I have not had any problems yet, nor do I burn much oil at all at 50K miles, etc. and in my situation the consensus was, determine if you are an enthusiast and are goinig to keep this car for a long period of time (10+ years) or not, because at this age onward, once you open it up to replace the guides (which you "can" expect to do sooner than later), there are some key items which should more often then not also be done, (rings, leaky through bolts, etc.) which unfortunately will bring your bill to an easy $8-12K before they get into "everything". And the "everything" is not to BS you and make cash, it's simply that all of the items in the engine as "bullet proof" as they are will wear, and if you are going to do it, unless you do it right the first time, you will be doing it again. This summed up my proverb of "The cheap man always pays twice." quite nicely

What they said they are seeing more and more are POs getting rid of their cars before, or concurrent with, the problem and cars which have had "Honest John's Autohaus" (they spoke in general terms and named no dealers or shops, I just pulled that out of the air) replace the guides and for the most part (often at a customer's wallet's request) button her back up. Shortly thereafter (at least in the life of the 993 engine) POs are having - or will have - to bring the car back for other organic "wear" problems, having the top ends redone . . . again. Further, a lot of the top ends that they see from the dealers, etc. were redone with OEM valve guides, which . . . you guessed it, cause the original guide problem to arise again, on top of the other more orgaic wear issues.

I love to think of our cars as "bullet proof", the ever steadfast stallion, but is that really realistic in 2008? They certainly were for the first decade of ownership, but even Hondas start coming apart after a decade. So, just saying their obervations are approximately realistic, at this point, those of us who have not had the full Monty done on the top end (or done properly) can expect it sooner than later. And that is going to amount to an easy $10K+ in repairs, and probably even more in the years ahead as parts increase in expense due to the dollar sinking abroad and labor increasing.

Again, I was assured that the top end for valve guides only "can" be done for less, but . . . to do all the opening up and not address issues that are naturally and organically going to "go next" is sensless, and again, "The cheap man will pay twice".

I don't know about you guys/gals, but I budget around $2K per year to keep my baby going and that has always worked well. Now, that is on top of the fact that I do most of the easy stuff myself (oil, brakes, all filters, resistors, SAI, check valve, etc.) and does not include tires, etc. Thus far I have always had a little $$$$ left over. That said, the thought of waking up on any Wednesday morning and knowing that realistically, even without a catastrophic failure at all, I should "reasonably" plan on setting aside and investing an additional $10K into a car I paid almost $40K for four years ago, just to keep it running as it is now, is a little daunting. It is actually pretty scary! And what of the new 993 owner who purchases one in the high $20s, low $30s today?

Anyway, with the "engine core" gent Harry last week, the grenading sparkplug friend a few days back, and others, my attention was piqued, and I asked more questions than usual. The answers I got, from the real straight up guys, were unfortunately pretty sobering and a genuine thought to consider in 993 ownership.

Thoughts?

AOW162435

You bring up some very valid points. That said. some of us have dumped quite a bit into maintaining a 993, while others have found the ownership experience very inexpensive (maintenance-wise, not mods). As for engine reliability, one need only to drop in on the 996 forum every week or so. You'll read of actual blown motors - constantly. In comparison (and yes, fewer 993s were built) the 993 board seems relatively quiet on that front.

My 993 will stay with me until I'm no longer able to drive. Will it cost money to maintain? Sure. But we knew that going in. I purchased mine in September '05 with 34,000 miles for $37,000. To date, I've added 13,000 miles to the clock. It's never given me so much as a hiccup during that time. Nothing. What a great car.

Andreas

TheOtherEric

I'm skeptical. I'd like to hear exactly what other work they find necessary that'll bring the bill to $8k to $12k. Rings? Perhaps. New seals? Inexpensive. IMHO they're just trying to justify charging people $8k to $12k for a rebuild, which is excessive. Just my 2c.

But clearly this is the best time to address other engine wear issues. They just seem to be exaggerating a bit.

tbil

The good thing about this issue is that there is plenty of warning giving you time to decide what you want to do, sell or rebuild. Not an item that breaks one day leaving you with few choices.....

slapshot

Great response Andreas. We think along the same lines. Probably an alternative title for my post should have been: Valve Guides and Top End ~ In Your Future - "Are You Committed?".

Which actually was at the core of my discussion with the shop. The issues unique to our car, as well as the organic issues related to the relative age of the motors, will separate out the true "enthusiasts" for whom there simply is no other alternative but a 993 series, from those who thought getting a 993 seemed like a reasonable entry level European sports car to purchase and a fun "thing to do" at the time.

Thanks for the reply!

Edward

Thanks a lot, Chris. I *was* having a great day

Thou speakest the truth, my friend. These cars truly are bulletproof, but Kevlar does have a shelf life. My 95 at about 110K miles is running strong as ever, but am starting to see signs of eventual clutch replacement (pricey), plug wires (pricey considering an OEM set from Honda is like $70), and the eventualities of high-mile cars. Heck, I'm facing clutch replacement now with my Trackmeister ...a lowly little SC (ya know, the original bulletproof 911 ). Anyone ever check the price on that clutch kit ...yeaow...for a 25-yr-old car!!! Ok so she's got a few miles on her...

Thanks for the sobering reality check. On my way home tonight, I'll just forget everything I said and hope my credit card is up to it when "that" time happens

Edward

slapshot

Agreed tbil.

And yes TOE, that is exactly why I posted. I am interested on what our little community has found to be their experience. Both owners and wrenches.

slapshot

Ah Edward, come on now! You know we're in this together. We can't help ourselves!

AOW162435

To Eric's thoughts, a good friend recently decided to have his valve guides replaced ('95 993, 75,000 miles) concurrent with a clutch job. He took the car to a highly-respected VA shop and was quoted something along $12,000....... After a bit of soul-searching, some Rennlist reading, and a dose of reality, he actually drove the car from here to New Hampshire in order to have the work correctly done for less than half of the original amount. That's dedication. I was on hand when he retrieved his 993 from the original shop - it was not very pleasant...

I hope he jumps on here and gives a full recount once the car is home in a few weeks.

Andreas

jdistefa

Eric,

Interesting... was having rebuild discussion with one of our board sponsors and friend to everyone here who's ever had a problem or question. He said that one of the cost drivers is.... you guessed it: Porsche.

Labour hours are pretty predictable, but the cost of some parts (oil pump, bearings, rings) has gone up a ridiculous amount in the past 1-2 years. In some cases, Porsche has arbitrarily raised prices more than 100%.

I have noticed various parts that I bought less than a year ago have gone up 20-25%. P&C kits seem to have crept up by 10% in the past year.

I guess it simply depends what you need done, but if you're getting into a complete rebuild, you can thank the mother ship for price increases.

vjd3

Good post ...

I had my own top-end done at that same New Hampshire shop, and gave the mechanic instructions to check everything thoroughly, and if it needed anything besides the guides, use his judgment.

He said the guides were well worn, but everything else was in fine shape; since he tears down and builds race motors constantly, I trust his opinion. (He used the better aftermarket guides, of course.) Since I had essentially given him carte blanche to replace what he thought needed to be replaced, I see no reason why he would have done a "bargain" job on the car.

I think it would be easy for just about any shop to find a reason to get that bill north of $10k ... but that doesn't mean it has to go that way. Charging book labor for every facet of the job, like X hours to replace the clutch or change the spark plugs even though it takes a few minutes when the motor's out anyway ... charging Porsche list for every nut, washer and bolt on the car ... etc. etc.

I also feel that any reputable shop that does a top-end rebuild and finds the car having problems a year or two down the road is probably going to step up and make it right. I would hope so, anyway.

The cheap man may pay twice, but the unsuspecting man may pay a lot more :-)

24FPS

if & when that happens on my cab i'd feel pressure to go 3.8... serious, esp. b/c i'm keepin' her for the long haul.

jaholmes

I agree. I think that the economics of a top-end rebuild is out of whack when you compare it to the cost of a brand new 996 engine. Something has got to give with the cost of our cars. You will need to keep the car for a long time if you are going to put in $10k+.

pedsurg

Slapshot: I've asked this question several times without a satisfactory answer. Did you discuss how we can best prevent or delay (premature)valve guide wear?? Specifically, did you discuss motor operating temperatures and its effect on the valve guides ??
thanks for posting

jack

briefescape

My story goes like this ...... bought a 95 cab 106k miles on it for $25k two years ago .... now has 114k miles , the most it may use`s 1/2 litre of oil between oil change I drive it like I stole it every chance I can . The motor is as strong as any 30k mile 993 out there or even better . Sure I`ve spent money on it but 95 % of it was on cosmetic and suspension stuff . Only thing I did when I DIY engine and tranny out detailing on the car was fix a tired syncro from 2nd to 1st and while in there I rebuild the 1st and 2nd gear . This summer that $25k with 114k miles cab . won the concours at the Canadian Western PCA event .
Don`t know if I`ll have have a valve issue in the future but in the meantime I do preventive maintance......which include always high revs , no engine tray and only Motul oil . My car" IS " bullet proof at this time ..... who knows about tomorrow . So " will need a top end rebuild " I`ll only believe it if I ever need it .

Cheers Guy