RallyJon

But you're missing the most important poll option: Has a '95, or a '96-'98 in a state with no emissions, and chooses to ignore the problem and just add some oil every now and then even though a top-end would make the engine perfect.

I bet there are a lot of cars out there that would be better after a top end than before, but I've never heard (read) of a 993 that was drinking more than a qt every 400 miles and HAD to have a top end done for that reason. Anyone out there like that?

slapshot

Yes, all three choices would be interesting to find out. That said, choice "C" will probably not be fessed up to with much candor!

Steve, I am sure those uninitiated w/your contributions appreciate your qualifier, though, it is absolutely, completely, and unequivocally unnecessary! Your selfless input on Rennslist is golden and much appreciated by all! Do love the irony in the Loren mix up however. Ha!

Moving on . . . maybe a few more folks who have cracked these engines can comment. This continues to be a compelling issue to address in the bright light of day and will certainly provide good fodder for the prospective 993 owner!

One comment previously made which I thought very pertinent to those who actively track and aggressively push the car when doing so (and how can you not) was the comment something along the lines that: building and treating the 993 motor like a race engine comes with the caveat that race motors are not intended or any way expected to endure 100K spans between rebuilds and are sometimes even rebuilt (parts at least) race for race. I am not sure if it was Chris Walrod - not to toss you into to this C, but while were on the race engine aspect! - I think it was, who noted on an Italian Tune Up thread way back, that yes, the brisk high RPM drive may help to clear things out, but high RPMs are just that, high RPMs, and the higher the RPM, necessarily the more wear and tear on "any" engine. Obviously a whole additional element to engine wear, but . . . wear is wear, and we really are concerned here about addressing the known problems (SAI, guide wear, rings, etc.) and the natural wear of key internal components so we can realistically plan as our cars enter their second decade.

pcar

When I bought my car three years ago I planned on installing RS flywheel and doing the 60 thousand mile tune-up, brake rotors ect. Because of this I priced the car to reflect the replacement of these items. I had the same shop that eventually did Fastfreddy and Vics car do the work on my car. I told Mark Nader (shop owner) "fix this as if it was yours..I will fly-in from L.A. and drive it home cross country" Mark called said " your check light is not on however there is alot of play in the valve stems...I would do the top-end while I am doing the clutch". So perhaps I was a little premature with my Top-end or I can give my self credit for planning for the weak dolar/euro trade.

Hot Oil

This has been a very interesting thread and very relevant to someone looking to purchase a 993, and that is where I would like to offer my opinion, which may help anyone considering selling their 993.
When I decided to trade up from my SC a few months ago, I did as much research into the 993 as I could find while simultaneously searching North America for the 993 that I would purchase. I found very few that listed in their ads that they had the top end rebuilt and those that did usually had other things done including the RS clutch. Most of 993's for sale have not had the top end done and from my research and trusted opinions given to me, it made sense for me to find one that had it done for all of the reasons stated in this thread and more. The perception held by a lot of 993 buyers is that if the top end hasn't been done, the owner is ducking his required maintenance on at least one major component of the car and right or wrong, that there is a better one to be found elsewhere. I have heard a lot of stories from sellers as to why their 993 will never need this done and while not letting on that I am in the car business, some were rather amusing. They could be right but my perceptions exist.
I was looking for a coupe but ended up buying a black '96 993 Targa, thanks in part to members of this forum, and that had the top end and RS clutch done by the the same mechanic and shop that I use. It has been almost 6 weeks of ownership bliss and I am eagerly looking forward to Spring and all of the driving it is going to bring.
A special thanks to all of you who contribute to this forum, I dont know if you realize how much you help newbies such as myself.

My $.02 worth:-)

Bob

AOW162435

As a humorous aside to this otherwise excellent discussion - my first car (at age 13) was a '66 Beetle. Although the odo showed something like 64,000 miles when my father brought it home, its condition hinted at 164,000 or even 264,000 hard miles. That beast leaked oil all the time. It leaked oil in the morning, it leaked oil during the day, it leaked oil at night, and it leaked oil at any point between those other times. I loved that car, as it was my first real foray into understanding mechanical issues.

Unfortunately, I was not all that versed in the finer aspects of oil change intervals, oil viscosity, etc. So I just kept an eye on the amount of oil it leaked and occasionally pulled the dipstick. When my keen automotive sense detected a need for more oil, I'd sniff around in our garage or in the tractor building. Sometimes a quart of straight 30 would find its way down the funnel, other times a quart of diesel-specific oil. Never once gave it more thought than that. I’m sure the valve guides were worn.

After three years of loving care and top-shelf maintenance, I sold it to a buddy in high school for $50. He had the car towed to his house and then proceeded to flog it up and down his subdivision streets while his parents were gone. After a few days of this, one of the cylinder heads gave up the ghost and bathed everything in my oil cocktail…….


Andreas

matt777

I am in a different situation as I am preparing to buy my first Porsche next year. Some of the horror stories do make me think about a newer Boxster purchase.
I certainly read the many valve guide stories and assume that this issue isn't as quite as common as one would think based on the volume of posts. On the flip side I also have concerns regarding the very small population of advertised cars that claim to have had this work done already. Perhaps these cars being sold because their owners weren't willing to spend the money (I would say make the investment but ....) Will a leak down test definitively show guide wear problems? Probably only if it is bad enough to affect the valve sealing. The seller may or may not know about the oil consumption. Wouldn't the engine smoke at 1 quart/600 miles? I thought people were kidding about this level of oil consumption.

As far as repair costs, the quoted numbers blow me away. I'm used to spending $400 to get 2 V8 heads redone (not including r&r) so I have a hard time figuring out where $12k goes. Granted the engine is somewhat more complex but it is just a mechanical piece of equipment at the end of the day.
ps Crappy iron guides aren't unique to Porsche as I've seen these used as replacements on other engines with very poor results.

Buying a hobby car that never needs work sounds kind of boring. That said, with no previous Porsche experience but lots of other wrenching experience, I wouldn't hesitate to drop the engine and tear it down. In fact I'm looking forward to the chance to do this one day after many pleasurable. All i want to know is what I'm getting when I buy my 993.

goofballdeluxe

Slap, living in the Los Angeles area myself, I sure would love to know who your wrench is. Sounds like an amazing garage...

Edward

Steve certainly needs no "vouching" from RL members as he has consistently, and over many, many years, offered his expertise to us here gratis. As an enthusiast and gentleman, Steve is above reproach. This I know first hand. So while he needs no "defense," per se, I feel that this needed to be said by someone other than Steve, himself. ...and now back to our regularly scheduled program, er, thread.

Edward

geolab

Hello Steve,

At the age of 14 in the late seventies, my dad took me with him on a business trip overseas. After practically half a day of travel, we landed in the morning at portland and the scene was breathtaking. I still remember the pyramidal mountain covered with snow under a clear blue sky..
We were invited by a company called Hanna, and the owner was so welcoming that he received us at his home for the few days we stayed.
He took us on a 'small' ride with his cessna, to show us the country from above. I still have very good memories...
I hope one day I will go back, and maybe call you if I may, but if ever you are in europe, do not hesitate to call me and hopefully we could meet.
Thanks for not taking it personnal.

dhicks

Hey Andreas...which VA shop....PM me if you do not want to post?

Auto_Werks 3.6

... Matt, Im not entirely sure that looking into a used water cooled car is the best way to reduce the cost of Porsche ownership. I think over the long haul, you will still depreciate MORE than 10K on a newer Boxster. The 993 on the other hand appears to be pretty stable. Personally I would rather risk money that *might need to be spent to keep a "classic" air cooled porsche. Unless you buy a Boxter with warranty remaining you are still taking a risk, and despite potential valve guide problems, you will never convince me that the 993 has a worse engine than any Boxster out there.
All the "bullet proof" 911's had their problems; Some SC's and carreras have started to have head stud problems, and as long as I can remember people have complained about 60k mile top ends on 3.2 cars.
Heck, I put 15,000 miles on an SC that used a quart every 500 miles! I knew it probably needed a valve job, but oil was cheap and it never fouled the plugs or smoked (that I noticed) so it didn't seem that urgent.
Bottom line: these cars are not cheap to run, but you can't beat the fun factor! If it were me, I would relax and keep driving until either the performance dropped off, or I failed emissions. As long as you don't gernade the bottom end, the cost of repairs will be relatively similar.

Mark in Baltimore

Thanks for clarifying, Geolab. I'm not trying to antagonize you, but, since I thought you were referring to Steve Weiner, wanted to state that, despite his business, I unequivocally value his experience and insight into our cars and have never once felt that his advice was colored by conflict of interest. Sorry; you're original statement was at once puzzling and confusing.

Rick Lee

Luckily, my car is still burning way less than 1 qt. per 1000 miles. But this time of year, it's kind of hard to get it to the temps where I normally measure the oil level. I keep a meticulous log book of date and mileage for everything I touch on the car. When the time comes, I will DIY my top end, mail the heads off to Steve W. for the upgraded valve guides and replace whatever else is necessary. I bought the set of lifters back when they were $144 for all 12. That's probably $1000 now right there.

DIY'ing my 3.0 rebuild with a buddy ran me around $4500 and a good chunk of that was for SSI's, 964 cams and his labor. Had I just done the heads and head studs, which was all that was needed, and done it all myself, it would have been under $2000. I can't even imagine paying close to $10k for a rebuild. Would never ever do it.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

LOL,....That was Dan Hanna of Hanna Industries,...

Dan passed away a few years ago and not only was he one helluva pilot, but he raced a CanAM McClaren (and other cars) for a few years. He was a huge car nut and owned a stable of exotics that he drove the living poop out of them.

No offense taken of course and please come back to the Rose City for a visit, anytime! Its changed,...

I'd be happy to take you for another airplane ride and show you several things such as Mt St. Helens,.....

nsully

Last friday I grabbed the 1 hour flight to New Hampshire to pick up my 993. New valve guides, rings, re-seal, PS belt, clutch assembly, and anything else that needed attention. I couldn't be happier with the car, especially on my 461 mile return drive.
With 76K on the clock I was using 1 quart every 700-900 miles, and I needed to replace the clutch. If the engine was coming out it made sense to do both at the same time.
Like many on this thread I was concerned when confronted with the high costs some shops were charging to attend to what I believe to be "wear items". And like most of us I was looking for someone who had the same commitment towards quality work that we can put our trust in. Disappointing contacts with a local shop left me with the impression that their approach to a top end rebuild has been simplified to taking everything apart-replace it with all new parts-put it back together- and charge a whole bunch of money. While I don't believe the technician took that approach, that was the word from management. Not the way I do business. I didn't give it a second thought. Mark Nadler/ Exotech had been lauded both here and on the PCA. I contacted him, drove up to New Hampshire, and the rest is history.
Mark is a technician, a machinist, a long time Porsche specialist, and an honest individual. He charges the hours it actually takes to complete the work-not an estimate from a book. He takes the time to do the job right, and will take the time to explain the process. In short, I believe he has the same concern for the wellbeing of our car as we do. Which is really frightening considering how **** we all are. I can not recommend him any higher.
Neil