vjd3

Back in the mid 90s, when I was driving a 3.2 Carrera, this was an equally hot topic on the old 911 email list, which eventually became Rennlist.

Certain 3.2 Carreras were prone to premature valve guide wear; one of the founders of Rennlist, Charlie Kindel, bought an 88 Carrera with 7000 miles on it, only to find that the guides were shot and needed to be replaced. He got some help from Porsche at his dealer, as I recall.

Bruce Anderson, the guru at the time, put it very succinctly ... when the engine is drinking oil and fouling its plugs, it's time to replace the guides. That's still good advice today.

My own Porsche mechanic, who now works for the factory, had even better advice: "Quit worrying. Just drive it."

Heat doesn't help things, as Steve said; that's why I run my oil cooler fan all the time. My oil temperature is never above 212. If the fan burns out, well, it's not that hard to get a new fan, you know?

Lots of folks around here barely drive their cars, they put 2000-4000 miles a year on 'em. If your car is taking a quart every thousand miles now it might be another six years before it gets bad enough to worry about. They don't wear out overnight, it's an ongoing process. I've put 10,000 miles on my car since the top end was done last winter. It uses no oil at all.

The SAI issue is what prompted me to address my top end, even though I squeaked it past emissions by resetting the light and rushing to the station as soon as enough of the readiness codes reset. My car also needed a clutch, so it was a no-brainer, especially at the price I was lucky enough to get.

There were also early 993's that had a reputation for the rings never seating properly, either due to the original engine build or the break-in procedure; those cars drank oil from day one.

If you have a good one that's not using oil, forget about the guides. If your car uses oil, when it's really using oil, that's when it's decision time.

My two cents :-)

slapshot

Geolab, your points are valid and well taken like anyone elses. Let me just underscore that my interest in this issue is piqued due to the reality that "this issue", which is as much about organic motor wear as valve guides, is coming up with more relative frequency so . . . it should be on our minds. And the person who drops $28K on a clean 80K car, who your RUF techs suggest they have seen go 100K, will be pretty disgraught if he does not figure in the issues of discussion into his ownership agenda (budget) over the next 20K miles. And judging by how many of us drive, that would be anywhere from 2 - 5 years forward, and he's potentially bought himself a $38K 993. I certainly expect to see my 993 fine at 100k, I purchased it under the assumption that that was common place. They are bullet proof. Possibly I was a bit overly enthusiastic in my expectations, hopefully not, I'll let you all know in 50k more miles!

A good sense of skepticism is healthy, and I respect that too. That said, as for forums for profit, I would like to offer that not only has this forum specifically saved me tons of $$$$ but, the gurus, specialists, and shop owners who do so kindly offer advice here are one in a million and I have yet to ever see or hear of anyone pitching their shop or services. As far as parts retailers, maybe more of the pitching goes on. I don't follow that. For the other side of the story, the glass half full, not only does my wrench's shop endorse DIYs, they actually encourage it and allow me to watch them at work so I can do it myself and "do not" have to take it to them next time. And this is for stuff ranging from oil changes to brakes. They show me tricks I would never find out on my own, even on this forum! However deep I want to go, they will help. If I screw up, they would be more than happy to have it flatbedded over without judgment and get me back on the road. Luckily that has yet to happen! LOL! Everyone is in business to make money, but, there are also people who love the marquee, love the enthusiast heart, and go out of their way to foster an incredible ownership experience. Maybe I have just been lucky enough to link up with those people, but I can say, their presence is widely felt on this forum.

Back on track . . . awareness and others' experience on guide replacement, realistic expenses involved, and natural motor wear are the items I had hoped to bring to the fore, and I think judging by all the wonderful input thus far, an informative discussion is being had. Thanks all!

geolab

Hell no, ink on paper is a double-edged sword when mal-interpreted, and you don't have to apologize.
This has nothing to do with any specific person and less with the person you mentioned.
I do not know SW unfortunately, and less in this thread, agree or not agree with him.
All I know about S. Weiner is that he represents a company who has published this article and that is clear, specific, with no illusion. don't get me wrong...

AOW162435

I thought this was Loren's company?


Andreas

dhicks

Yes, me too..........
But this is a great thread with a lot of worthwhile debate.....one of the things I like about RL.

Shizznik

Hey guys, just to make yourself feel better about your current ride/impending purchase, just think of what Ferrari guys spend on their services!!!! I know of a 1986 Testarossa with a 30K major service for 25K!!!!!!!!!!!! He bought the car for 60!!!!!! Obviously it's gotten a ton of work basically a full rebuild, but that's just the motor!! If you want to play, you gotta pay........most people assume it's a 35K car, or whatever, but it really is a 70K car, and parts for a 5000 cars built as opposed to parts for say a Golf which is probably in the vicinity of 500,000 a year, is pretty large, so it should not surprise anyone........I agree it's a ton of money, but it is an investment that you must be willing to make from the beginning, otherwise you should just get a new car and not worry about stuff like this. I love my C2S and wouldn't trade it for anything!!

geolab

sorry, it was unintentional, my apologies, no offense, and this is full proof that I do not know the people you are talking about,
so my opinion was not specific oriented.

BTW, I was not selling RUF or Porsche Dusseldorf neither.

DaveM993

On the flip side of this coin...would Dusseldorf, and by extension RUF, ever admit if there was a design error or mistake??

Having said that, I have a low mileage 993 that burns 1 qt every 900 miles and as always done so. The plugs look good, the SAI is clear and it runs like a top. I also am fortunate to live in a PA County that does not require emissions.

I think it will be awhile before I need to think about a valve job.

EDIT: BTW the manual does say up to 1.5 L every 1000 km...and if I get my conversions right is about 1 qt. every 400 miles?? Did I get that right?

dhicks

Lets not let this thread degenerate into anything more than it was meant to be.....a serious question/thought on the cost of ownership now and in the future.

I bought my 97 Carrera with 70+ miles in March 05 for $33 and it now has 104 on it.....in that time I have spent a small fortune - according to my wonderful wife - but was any of it really required.......probably not, well except the DMF which was shot, so the clutch and LFW was necessary.......everything else was because I wanted to.......having said that, compression and leakdown are all well within tolerance, oil consumption is around a qt per 1500 miles............everything else is just dandy.......she is sitting at home with her boots up, charger installed while it snows here in MD.....yes its the first winter since I have had her that she will not be on the road every day. I intend, like Andreas to keep her as long as I am able......physically and financially.....

The discussion on costs of an engine strip are valid but like all older cars it will depend on how they were built, driven and maintained. Each 993 is an individual and should be thought of like that, yes there are some common points (SAI comes to mind, but remember there are a LOT of other cars that use the same idea and have the same issues) but also like humans depending on how they are treated will depend how they mature and break........so to think that every 993 will need an engine strip to replace valve guides between 80-120K is wrong........as long as our cars are maintained well and "watched and small issues repaired" (oil use, unusual rattles, leaks) they will just keep going.....

As for unscrupulous posters feathering their own nest.....hey that happens everywhere, but on a board like this we do tend to question and ridicule stupidity, remember poor Adam about a year ago.....and group buys, while sometimes used wrongly, still benefit others that decide they want or have to have a certain thing. Its a free choice on that one, nobody tells us what to do.

On publications and recommendation, I come form a science background and there are plenty of science publications that are called into question, analysed, pulled apart, ridiculed....some wrongly, so I suggest we do the same here....read what you find, challenge the hypothesis, validate or invalidate using your own experince and by talking with several people about the subject....then form your own opinion which may or may not agree with the original......

I just love this board !

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Geolab:

I own & operate Rennsport Systems in Portland Oregon and have nothing to do with Systems Consulting in California. Google them and you'll see what I mean. I've had PLENTY of disagreements with the owner, Loren.



I suppose this is the moment that I need to specifically state that I do not offer any suggestions, recommendations, nor any advice with the objective to steer profits my direction. Anyone who knows me would hopefully vouch for the fact that I do not conduct business on Rennlist and VERY carefully guard my objectivity, credibility and reputation as thats all we really have.

I have "no dog in this hunt" as they say and it doesn't matter to me what someone does with their car. All I do is try to offer the long-term benefits of my experience with no strings attached.

dhicks

Well said Steve....the only couple of discussions I have had with you in the past have always seemed very objective and only helpful......you did not stand to make money from me......you are to far away!!!!

Davies

Steve W. should not have to defend himself. He is a gem on this board IMHO.

autobonrun

It is somewhat unfair to compare the 993 to earlier 911's that did not have SAI/ CEL lights that come on impacting your ability to pass inspection.

A poll I would love to see among 993 owners that have done a top end rebuild;

1) I did a top end rebuild primarily because of an SAI pluggage.

or

2) I did a top end rebuild because of mechanical issues other than an SAI pluggage.

This question somewhat isolates issues like poor design tolerances and valve guide material selection from a rebuild solely to meet environmental requirements.

I empathize with owners in states that perform inspections but as things stand now, it would take more than an SAI pluggage to make me do a top end rebuild.

SPIKES

GOOD QUESTION?

DaveM993

Naw....really?

Actually...reading you two going at it over ECU reprogramming is one of my favorite pastimes