Ninemeister Cylinder Heads
11-11-2007, 07:10 PM
#77
Drifting
Please drive carefully!!!
Currently in the UK. I sent Colin an email before I left requesting a visit to his shop. Have not heard from him yet. Also contacted a UK member who already has the heads installed and is willing to take me for a ride in it. Hope to still visit ninemeister and take shots before returning. Will provide update on status of progress with US cylinder heads also. Regards.
11-11-2007, 09:36 PM
#78
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11-12-2007, 08:12 AM
#79
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The only news I have is that the cylinder heads and associated parts are still available and there are some more interesting parts to follow soon.
Unfortunately you guys will have to find your own way around your USA-only OBD2 ecus, other than on the early 993 turbo we do not have these in Europe so it is not even possible for me to convert a car in the UK and send over a pre-programmed unit, and before you start ordering air flights it is definitely not practical to come over and do the work myself. So, unless you are converting a race car in which my preferred choice would be to fit Motec, the logical solution is the one offered to 993 turbo owners which is to fit the later 98 Motronic ecu. This ecu has seperate program/data chips (which are still available) and can fairly easily be reprogrammed, and the name that seems to come up time and time again for this is Todd Knighton of Protomotive and I know that Todd is becoming more aware of the parts we are supplying as more of our customers discuss potential jobs with him.
Unfortunately you guys will have to find your own way around your USA-only OBD2 ecus, other than on the early 993 turbo we do not have these in Europe so it is not even possible for me to convert a car in the UK and send over a pre-programmed unit, and before you start ordering air flights it is definitely not practical to come over and do the work myself. So, unless you are converting a race car in which my preferred choice would be to fit Motec, the logical solution is the one offered to 993 turbo owners which is to fit the later 98 Motronic ecu. This ecu has seperate program/data chips (which are still available) and can fairly easily be reprogrammed, and the name that seems to come up time and time again for this is Todd Knighton of Protomotive and I know that Todd is becoming more aware of the parts we are supplying as more of our customers discuss potential jobs with him.
11-12-2007, 09:12 AM
#80
Drifting
But the 95's are candidates for the system?
The only news I have is that the cylinder heads and associated parts are still available and there are some more interesting parts to follow soon.
Unfortunately you guys will have to find your own way around your USA-only OBD2 ecus, other than on the early 993 turbo we do not have these in Europe so it is not even possible for me to convert a car in the UK and send over a pre-programmed unit, and before you start ordering air flights it is definitely not practical to come over and do the work myself. So, unless you are converting a race car in which my preferred choice would be to fit Motec, the logical solution is the one offered to 993 turbo owners which is to fit the later 98 Motronic ecu. This ecu has seperate program/data chips (which are still available) and can fairly easily be reprogrammed, and the name that seems to come up time and time again for this is Todd Knighton of Protomotive and I know that Todd is becoming more aware of the parts we are supplying as more of our customers discuss potential jobs with him.
Unfortunately you guys will have to find your own way around your USA-only OBD2 ecus, other than on the early 993 turbo we do not have these in Europe so it is not even possible for me to convert a car in the UK and send over a pre-programmed unit, and before you start ordering air flights it is definitely not practical to come over and do the work myself. So, unless you are converting a race car in which my preferred choice would be to fit Motec, the logical solution is the one offered to 993 turbo owners which is to fit the later 98 Motronic ecu. This ecu has seperate program/data chips (which are still available) and can fairly easily be reprogrammed, and the name that seems to come up time and time again for this is Todd Knighton of Protomotive and I know that Todd is becoming more aware of the parts we are supplying as more of our customers discuss potential jobs with him.
11-13-2007, 09:50 AM
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Starting to sound like a 993TT might be in the works for me. Looks like getting the ECU remapped for Colin's heads might be a real bundle of snakes. Also there would not be support for the mods on this side of the Atlantic.
I figure I could sell my '97 S + $20k and find a similar condition '97 or '98 TT.
That would have better resale than the modded "S". I would never get my $$ out of $12K of mods.
It's a shame really. From what I have read in the British mags his heads are the real deal, but without a consistent, comprehensive package it's just too much $$ to risk.
I figure I could sell my '97 S + $20k and find a similar condition '97 or '98 TT.
That would have better resale than the modded "S". I would never get my $$ out of $12K of mods.
It's a shame really. From what I have read in the British mags his heads are the real deal, but without a consistent, comprehensive package it's just too much $$ to risk.
Last edited by Reynard38; 11-13-2007 at 12:20 PM.
11-13-2007, 09:16 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Marlon, check the write up from Gil. Colin's heads are for real!
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/368211-goodwood-race-circuit-and-9m-heads-long.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/368211-goodwood-race-circuit-and-9m-heads-long.html
11-14-2007, 08:18 PM
#85
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I'm following along. There's no one better to showcase your work than Todd.
In the past, you've stated the 993 heads are less efficient than the 964 heads.
Working back from that, Porsche put less efficient heads on the 993 vs. 964 to meet EPA compliances. But they(Porsche) improved the intake and exhaust to such a point that they improved the hp from 250 to 282. Do I have that right?
From our private conversations, you know my thoughts with regard to intakes and their influence.
If so, then the 993+9M heads should exceed the 964 conversion, or does your 964 intake close the gap?
11-14-2007, 10:19 PM
#86
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In my opinion the power gain seen on the standard 993 model relative to the 964 comes entirely from the engine management/MAF combination, at the level of tune they are at the intake and exhaust changes make a negligible difference. The Varioram intake is also a red herring, its benefits are mainly from spreading the torque over a wider rpm range, under test on perfectly tuned engines it usually reduces the peak torque number, gives the same peak power number but extends the peak power up to the redline and introduces the torque 1000rpm earlier, that's all.
When it comes to the 9m approach to tuning, unfortunately as you probably know already, the differences between the 964 & 993 engines cannot be simplified to just the cylinder heads because all the other differences - like ECU, MAF, heat exchangers, cams & intake - all make their own contribution to the performance potential of the two cars. We use a wholistic approach in order to maximise the results from each stage of an upgrade program, and although this has been well documented by myself on Rennlist in the past, a summary of the 9m approach reads something like:
964
1. Exhaust (cat bypass or 100 cell with Cup pipe)
2. Engine management - 9m Motec package with injectors & airbox
3. Camshafts
4. Porting heads or billets
5. Headers
6. Intake
993:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
3. Cams
4. Billet heads
5. Headers
6. Injectors (& Engine management)
If you want a headline quote, my take is that the major gains on the 964 come from the engine management whereas on the 993 they come from the 9m billet heads. That does not mean that the billets do not work on a 964, quite the opposite in fact, it is just that at these relatively standard levels of tune the stock heads work to their potential within the overall package.
The next significant stage to tuning either engine would be to fit wilder cams and a set of individual throttle bodies - and at this point the 9m billet heads would make 20+hp over modified 964 heads, for example my original 3.8 race engine gained 33hp from the prototype billets.
Does this answer your question, Noah?
When it comes to the 9m approach to tuning, unfortunately as you probably know already, the differences between the 964 & 993 engines cannot be simplified to just the cylinder heads because all the other differences - like ECU, MAF, heat exchangers, cams & intake - all make their own contribution to the performance potential of the two cars. We use a wholistic approach in order to maximise the results from each stage of an upgrade program, and although this has been well documented by myself on Rennlist in the past, a summary of the 9m approach reads something like:
964
1. Exhaust (cat bypass or 100 cell with Cup pipe)
2. Engine management - 9m Motec package with injectors & airbox
3. Camshafts
4. Porting heads or billets
5. Headers
6. Intake
993:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
3. Cams
4. Billet heads
5. Headers
6. Injectors (& Engine management)
If you want a headline quote, my take is that the major gains on the 964 come from the engine management whereas on the 993 they come from the 9m billet heads. That does not mean that the billets do not work on a 964, quite the opposite in fact, it is just that at these relatively standard levels of tune the stock heads work to their potential within the overall package.
The next significant stage to tuning either engine would be to fit wilder cams and a set of individual throttle bodies - and at this point the 9m billet heads would make 20+hp over modified 964 heads, for example my original 3.8 race engine gained 33hp from the prototype billets.
Does this answer your question, Noah?
11-14-2007, 11:40 PM
#87
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11-15-2007, 07:44 AM
#88
Drifting
Didn't you mean to say "99 or 00 tt..."?
Starting to sound like a 993TT might be in the works for me. Looks like getting the ECU remapped for Colin's heads might be a real bundle of snakes. Also there would not be support for the mods on this side of the Atlantic.
I figure I could sell my '97 S + $20k and find a similar condition '97 or '98 TT.
That would have better resale than the modded "S". I would never get my $$ out of $12K of mods.
It's a shame really. From what I have read in the British mags his heads are the real deal, but without a consistent, comprehensive package it's just too much $$ to risk.
I figure I could sell my '97 S + $20k and find a similar condition '97 or '98 TT.
That would have better resale than the modded "S". I would never get my $$ out of $12K of mods.
It's a shame really. From what I have read in the British mags his heads are the real deal, but without a consistent, comprehensive package it's just too much $$ to risk.
11-15-2007, 07:53 AM
#89
Drifting
So for a 'street only' 993, wonder if a tangible Tq gain in a suitable, street- RPM region could be gained from only:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
4. Billet heads
Or would the result be too 'weak' to justify cost and aggravation? Could 200 cell cats (DachX) be used instead? Or does it make more sense to merely go with a Steve Weiner chip & Dach X? Or maybe a chip & Dach X followed by heads later??? Seems like even a stock 993 would have the brakes and suspension to accomodate another 15-20 ft lbs. But given the trend & cost of benzine lately it might not make any sense at all. And the beat goes on...
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
4. Billet heads
Or would the result be too 'weak' to justify cost and aggravation? Could 200 cell cats (DachX) be used instead? Or does it make more sense to merely go with a Steve Weiner chip & Dach X? Or maybe a chip & Dach X followed by heads later??? Seems like even a stock 993 would have the brakes and suspension to accomodate another 15-20 ft lbs. But given the trend & cost of benzine lately it might not make any sense at all. And the beat goes on...
In my opinion the power gain seen on the standard 993 model relative to the 964 comes entirely from the engine management/MAF combination, at the level of tune they are at the intake and exhaust changes make a negligible difference. The Varioram intake is also a red herring, its benefits are mainly from spreading the torque over a wider rpm range, under test on perfectly tuned engines it usually reduces the peak torque number, gives the same peak power number but extends the peak power up to the redline and introduces the torque 1000rpm earlier, that's all.
When it comes to the 9m approach to tuning, unfortunately as you probably know already, the differences between the 964 & 993 engines cannot be simplified to just the cylinder heads because all the other differences - like ECU, MAF, heat exchangers, cams & intake - all make their own contribution to the performance potential of the two cars. We use a wholistic approach in order to maximise the results from each stage of an upgrade program, and although this has been well documented by myself on Rennlist in the past, a summary of the 9m approach reads something like:
964
1. Exhaust (cat bypass or 100 cell with Cup pipe)
2. Engine management - 9m Motec package with injectors & airbox
3. Camshafts
4. Porting heads or billets
5. Headers
6. Intake
993:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
3. Cams
4. Billet heads
5. Headers
6. Injectors (& Engine management)
If you want a headline quote, my take is that the major gains on the 964 come from the engine management whereas on the 993 they come from the 9m billet heads. That does not mean that the billets do not work on a 964, quite the opposite in fact, it is just that at these relatively standard levels of tune the stock heads work to their potential within the overall package.
The next significant stage to tuning either engine would be to fit wilder cams and a set of individual throttle bodies - and at this point the 9m billet heads would make 20+hp over modified 964 heads, for example my original 3.8 race engine gained 33hp from the prototype billets.
Does this answer your question, Noah?
When it comes to the 9m approach to tuning, unfortunately as you probably know already, the differences between the 964 & 993 engines cannot be simplified to just the cylinder heads because all the other differences - like ECU, MAF, heat exchangers, cams & intake - all make their own contribution to the performance potential of the two cars. We use a wholistic approach in order to maximise the results from each stage of an upgrade program, and although this has been well documented by myself on Rennlist in the past, a summary of the 9m approach reads something like:
964
1. Exhaust (cat bypass or 100 cell with Cup pipe)
2. Engine management - 9m Motec package with injectors & airbox
3. Camshafts
4. Porting heads or billets
5. Headers
6. Intake
993:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
3. Cams
4. Billet heads
5. Headers
6. Injectors (& Engine management)
If you want a headline quote, my take is that the major gains on the 964 come from the engine management whereas on the 993 they come from the 9m billet heads. That does not mean that the billets do not work on a 964, quite the opposite in fact, it is just that at these relatively standard levels of tune the stock heads work to their potential within the overall package.
The next significant stage to tuning either engine would be to fit wilder cams and a set of individual throttle bodies - and at this point the 9m billet heads would make 20+hp over modified 964 heads, for example my original 3.8 race engine gained 33hp from the prototype billets.
Does this answer your question, Noah?
11-15-2007, 10:14 AM
#90
Rennlist Member
So for a 'street only' 993, wonder if a tangible Tq gain in a suitable, street- RPM region could be gained from only:
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
4. Billet heads
Or would the result be too 'weak' to justify cost and aggravation? Could 200 cell cats (DachX) be used instead? Or does it make more sense to merely go with a Steve Weiner chip & Dach X? Or maybe a chip & Dach X followed by heads later??? Seems like even a stock 993 would have the brakes and suspension to accomodate another 15-20 ft lbs. But given the trend & cost of benzine lately it might not make any sense at all. And the beat goes on...
1. Remap Motronic
2. 100 cell Cats
4. Billet heads
Or would the result be too 'weak' to justify cost and aggravation? Could 200 cell cats (DachX) be used instead? Or does it make more sense to merely go with a Steve Weiner chip & Dach X? Or maybe a chip & Dach X followed by heads later??? Seems like even a stock 993 would have the brakes and suspension to accomodate another 15-20 ft lbs. But given the trend & cost of benzine lately it might not make any sense at all. And the beat goes on...
Speaking as a guy who has both the DACH-X (with 200 cell metal cats) and a rennsport chip, I can tell you that the difference is qualitative (beautiful sound, throttle response) more than quantitative (ie. butt dyno). If you're looking for hp, you're stuck with 3 choices:
1) supercharger
2) buy a tt
3) spend a lot of $$ on a creative NA rebuild