WARNING! "Clean", blue, '97 993 in Pennington, NJ could not be further from the truth
11-29-2006, 11:52 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
WARNING! "Clean", blue, '97 993 in Pennington, NJ could not be further from the truth
Grab a bagel, 'cause this is a long one.
Yesterday Andreas (AOW162435) and I went up to Pennington, NJ to look at a 128,000 mile, 1997 993 that is advertised in the PCA classifieds and on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=130051904618 Let's just say that our experience with this "clean car that runs well and is in good shape" was, ah, less than stellar. In fact, it was so bad that I felt compelled to warn my fellow Rennlist brothers and sisters of not only the car but also of the establishment in question, Autotechnik www.autotechnik.com. Although we were treated well by the salesperson there, the car was absolutely misrepresented, a finding that is in marked contrast to the positive feedback that Autotechnik has garnered on the Rennlist archives. Read on for the gory details.
I called Autotechnik on Monday afternoon and talked at length with the salesperson who said that the car is owned by a customer who had the car serviced at their shop. Said customer was getting into a late model BMW and needed to sell the 993. I was told that the 993 was in good shape considering the mileage and drove very well with very good performance from the motor. The bodywork had a few scratches and paint chips but was in, mostly, good shape and had never been repainted. The car looked like it had been lowered with an aftermarket suspension. There was an oil leak coming from the engine but, since the car had not been on their lift recently, he wasn't sure if it was a rear main seal or valve cover leak. There was not much wear on the driver's side outer seat bolster, but the supple seats looked as if a fat-cat Porsche owner had landed his keister on the cushion numerous times. The salesperson, who was very nice and patient with all of my questions, told me that the car had generated a huge volume of calls.
I looked at the ebay listing and was not impressed by the quality of the photos and could easily see that the steering wheel had a good bit of wear to it. No big deal and definitely worth a look.
Armed with my paint gauge tester, tools, jack and car trailer, I decided to trek up there with Andreas, a Porsche owner who, in very short time, has become quite acquainted with many of the inner workings of the model and has a very keen and detail-oriented eye. When we got there, at first blush, we saw a very pretty 993 with a lowered suspension. This first look from 100 yards away was the best the car was ever going to appear to our eyes.
What we found was a classic example of a car that was ridden hard and put away wet, and one that showed only the most cursory interest in having had anything beyond minimal maintenance. The car drive like a car that had over 200,000 miles on it. Here's what we found:
-the car is on the original shocks and has lowering springs. When I took it out for a test drive, I felt like Chip Hanauer piloting the Miss Budweiser in an off-shore powerboat race, bouncing from wave to wave, with directional stability more of an option rather than a requirement. Andreas likened it to a Cadillac with blown shocks or something like that. It handled terribly and bounced and juddered over the small humps in the road. Granted, I drove at around 60mph on a 40mph road, but it still handled like ***. This was a car that "drove well"?
-the engine was down on power, something that the salesperson admitted to while on the test drive. These cars should feel very strong with only 128,000 on the clock. Instead, this felt like it had over 250,000 miles on it. This was a car that "drove well"?
-the horn went off every time I braked the car with any vigor, a simple and obvious fix but, again, this was a car that "drove well"? I felt like all I needed was a clown outfit, some big-*** shoes and I'd be ready for the town parade. Quite funny, actually.
-Andreas felt a brake pulsation from warped rotors, but I didn't feel this and am not convinced that it was warpage. I guess my mind was in off-shore powerboat heaven as I imagined myself flying over the pitching seas.
-three of the CV boots were ripped and need to be replaced. Based on the overall maintenance of the car, our guess was that the CV joints were toasted and needed to be replaced.
-the salesperson cleaned up the oil on the engine from the oil leak but, if this was clean, I would hate to see what it looked like before. To his credit, maybe he didn't want to overly clean it so that customers could source out the leak. It looked like the leak was coming from the left valve covers but Andreas later noted oil in another place. I'll let him add his thoughts.
-the air filter was filthy. Replacing the filter costs a few bucks and takes 30 seconds. Clearly, we were not dealing with the stereotypical Porsche owner who is overly ****.
-the car had, at the very least, a passenger door, front bumper and hood that had been repainted (orange peel did not look factory). Andreas noted that the inside of the hood was glossy, in contrast to the matte finish of a factory hood, and was missing the options sticker. The salesperson said that his paint meter showed that there was no paint work on the car but, like the record store in the Dead Milkmen song that had never heard of Mojo Nixon, perhaps his meter could use some fixin'. For $20,000, I have no problem with a car that has paintwork, if it's done well and is not indicative of a major accident. However, I am very opposed to be being told that the car has not been repainted when it is obvious to the naked eye that the clearcoat is not factory. Anyone who has been around these cars for even a few minutes can see what a factory paint finish looks like.
-the rear bumper fascia was partially melted near the right exhaust pipe.
-the driver's side door gasket was split and was flapping around.
-the driver's side door handle gaskets were badly rotted.
-the driver's side door handle pull did not feel right and had too much gritchiness to it.
-the sunroof gasket was partially missing.
-the sunroof air deflector was badly rusted and did not allow the center deflector to pop out.
-the driver's side door had the dreaded doorstop click.
-there was awful window tinting all-around the car, the tinting badly bubbling on the rear window.
-rear spoiler wall needed to be replaced. I expected this.
-the windshield had been replaced and, unfortunately, poorly installed, almost as if the installer was a former cake decorator with bad eyesight and a shaky hand. The black gasket looked awful. Anyone who has been around cars knows that, in addition to rusting issues from the glass rubbing the metal, a poor windshield install can be bad news for the electrics behind the dash. Which leads me to the next issue.
-three of the gauges had been removed and installed crookedly. Not a huge deal, but when taken as a whole, makes one wonder why the gauges had to be pulled and why they weren't reinstalled with some semblance of care? I don't have to tell anyone that we wondered about the originality of the odo. Carfax? Waste of time. Shop records? Waste of time and obvious conflict of interest.
-the interior had been, perhaps, vacuumed but was far from clean. The wood shifter **** was missing the shift pattern, leaving a lovely glue-and-paper backing for one's hand to rest on. The car didn't seem refreshed at all. IMHO, if a dealer is going to sell a car, as-is status or not, they have a duty to present a clean car.
-the exterior looked like it had been cleaned quickly with a big brush. The ebay photos showed an area near the front license plate that hadn't been cleaned. Okay, they were in a hurry to shoot the photos and missed the spot. When I called Autotechnik to let them know that we were coming and asked them to wash the car, they said that they had just washed it that morning. I guess they used the same cake decorator/windshield installer because the front bumper was still dirty.
Did I mention that this car was misrepresented??
After checking out the archives and not finding anything negative about Autotechnik, I expected to find an as-advertised car. Instead, the poor 993 had been neglected and was tired and forlorn. On ebay for $18,900 and at a pull-it-off-of-ebay price of $19,500, I offered $15,000, a price that is still too high. If I paid $10,000 for this sorry car, it would have been too much trouble for me to deal with. The dealer will find some sap who knows very little about Porsches and is jumping up and down with glee that he can get into a '97 993 for under $20,000. I knew that the car wouldn't be perfect but it sure would have been decent of Autotechnik to be more forthright about the condition of the car.
Thanks, Autotechnik, you wasted my time and money.
Rennlist, you have been warned.
Yesterday Andreas (AOW162435) and I went up to Pennington, NJ to look at a 128,000 mile, 1997 993 that is advertised in the PCA classifieds and on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=130051904618 Let's just say that our experience with this "clean car that runs well and is in good shape" was, ah, less than stellar. In fact, it was so bad that I felt compelled to warn my fellow Rennlist brothers and sisters of not only the car but also of the establishment in question, Autotechnik www.autotechnik.com. Although we were treated well by the salesperson there, the car was absolutely misrepresented, a finding that is in marked contrast to the positive feedback that Autotechnik has garnered on the Rennlist archives. Read on for the gory details.
I called Autotechnik on Monday afternoon and talked at length with the salesperson who said that the car is owned by a customer who had the car serviced at their shop. Said customer was getting into a late model BMW and needed to sell the 993. I was told that the 993 was in good shape considering the mileage and drove very well with very good performance from the motor. The bodywork had a few scratches and paint chips but was in, mostly, good shape and had never been repainted. The car looked like it had been lowered with an aftermarket suspension. There was an oil leak coming from the engine but, since the car had not been on their lift recently, he wasn't sure if it was a rear main seal or valve cover leak. There was not much wear on the driver's side outer seat bolster, but the supple seats looked as if a fat-cat Porsche owner had landed his keister on the cushion numerous times. The salesperson, who was very nice and patient with all of my questions, told me that the car had generated a huge volume of calls.
I looked at the ebay listing and was not impressed by the quality of the photos and could easily see that the steering wheel had a good bit of wear to it. No big deal and definitely worth a look.
Armed with my paint gauge tester, tools, jack and car trailer, I decided to trek up there with Andreas, a Porsche owner who, in very short time, has become quite acquainted with many of the inner workings of the model and has a very keen and detail-oriented eye. When we got there, at first blush, we saw a very pretty 993 with a lowered suspension. This first look from 100 yards away was the best the car was ever going to appear to our eyes.
What we found was a classic example of a car that was ridden hard and put away wet, and one that showed only the most cursory interest in having had anything beyond minimal maintenance. The car drive like a car that had over 200,000 miles on it. Here's what we found:
-the car is on the original shocks and has lowering springs. When I took it out for a test drive, I felt like Chip Hanauer piloting the Miss Budweiser in an off-shore powerboat race, bouncing from wave to wave, with directional stability more of an option rather than a requirement. Andreas likened it to a Cadillac with blown shocks or something like that. It handled terribly and bounced and juddered over the small humps in the road. Granted, I drove at around 60mph on a 40mph road, but it still handled like ***. This was a car that "drove well"?
-the engine was down on power, something that the salesperson admitted to while on the test drive. These cars should feel very strong with only 128,000 on the clock. Instead, this felt like it had over 250,000 miles on it. This was a car that "drove well"?
-the horn went off every time I braked the car with any vigor, a simple and obvious fix but, again, this was a car that "drove well"? I felt like all I needed was a clown outfit, some big-*** shoes and I'd be ready for the town parade. Quite funny, actually.
-Andreas felt a brake pulsation from warped rotors, but I didn't feel this and am not convinced that it was warpage. I guess my mind was in off-shore powerboat heaven as I imagined myself flying over the pitching seas.
-three of the CV boots were ripped and need to be replaced. Based on the overall maintenance of the car, our guess was that the CV joints were toasted and needed to be replaced.
-the salesperson cleaned up the oil on the engine from the oil leak but, if this was clean, I would hate to see what it looked like before. To his credit, maybe he didn't want to overly clean it so that customers could source out the leak. It looked like the leak was coming from the left valve covers but Andreas later noted oil in another place. I'll let him add his thoughts.
-the air filter was filthy. Replacing the filter costs a few bucks and takes 30 seconds. Clearly, we were not dealing with the stereotypical Porsche owner who is overly ****.
-the car had, at the very least, a passenger door, front bumper and hood that had been repainted (orange peel did not look factory). Andreas noted that the inside of the hood was glossy, in contrast to the matte finish of a factory hood, and was missing the options sticker. The salesperson said that his paint meter showed that there was no paint work on the car but, like the record store in the Dead Milkmen song that had never heard of Mojo Nixon, perhaps his meter could use some fixin'. For $20,000, I have no problem with a car that has paintwork, if it's done well and is not indicative of a major accident. However, I am very opposed to be being told that the car has not been repainted when it is obvious to the naked eye that the clearcoat is not factory. Anyone who has been around these cars for even a few minutes can see what a factory paint finish looks like.
-the rear bumper fascia was partially melted near the right exhaust pipe.
-the driver's side door gasket was split and was flapping around.
-the driver's side door handle gaskets were badly rotted.
-the driver's side door handle pull did not feel right and had too much gritchiness to it.
-the sunroof gasket was partially missing.
-the sunroof air deflector was badly rusted and did not allow the center deflector to pop out.
-the driver's side door had the dreaded doorstop click.
-there was awful window tinting all-around the car, the tinting badly bubbling on the rear window.
-rear spoiler wall needed to be replaced. I expected this.
-the windshield had been replaced and, unfortunately, poorly installed, almost as if the installer was a former cake decorator with bad eyesight and a shaky hand. The black gasket looked awful. Anyone who has been around cars knows that, in addition to rusting issues from the glass rubbing the metal, a poor windshield install can be bad news for the electrics behind the dash. Which leads me to the next issue.
-three of the gauges had been removed and installed crookedly. Not a huge deal, but when taken as a whole, makes one wonder why the gauges had to be pulled and why they weren't reinstalled with some semblance of care? I don't have to tell anyone that we wondered about the originality of the odo. Carfax? Waste of time. Shop records? Waste of time and obvious conflict of interest.
-the interior had been, perhaps, vacuumed but was far from clean. The wood shifter **** was missing the shift pattern, leaving a lovely glue-and-paper backing for one's hand to rest on. The car didn't seem refreshed at all. IMHO, if a dealer is going to sell a car, as-is status or not, they have a duty to present a clean car.
-the exterior looked like it had been cleaned quickly with a big brush. The ebay photos showed an area near the front license plate that hadn't been cleaned. Okay, they were in a hurry to shoot the photos and missed the spot. When I called Autotechnik to let them know that we were coming and asked them to wash the car, they said that they had just washed it that morning. I guess they used the same cake decorator/windshield installer because the front bumper was still dirty.
Did I mention that this car was misrepresented??
After checking out the archives and not finding anything negative about Autotechnik, I expected to find an as-advertised car. Instead, the poor 993 had been neglected and was tired and forlorn. On ebay for $18,900 and at a pull-it-off-of-ebay price of $19,500, I offered $15,000, a price that is still too high. If I paid $10,000 for this sorry car, it would have been too much trouble for me to deal with. The dealer will find some sap who knows very little about Porsches and is jumping up and down with glee that he can get into a '97 993 for under $20,000. I knew that the car wouldn't be perfect but it sure would have been decent of Autotechnik to be more forthright about the condition of the car.
Thanks, Autotechnik, you wasted my time and money.
Rennlist, you have been warned.
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 11-29-2006 at 03:21 PM.
11-29-2006, 12:24 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Suddenly, Mark realized that those months of assertiveness training were finally paying off. 
Sorry, inside joke.
Mark- did I read it correctly that you offered $15,000?! Must be some paternal instincts or perhaps you're looking for a "rescuer" relationship...
Sorry, inside joke. Mark- did I read it correctly that you offered $15,000?! Must be some paternal instincts or perhaps you're looking for a "rescuer" relationship...
11-29-2006, 12:26 PM
#6
Weathergirl
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
some sap who knows very little about Porsches and is jumping up and down with glee that he can get into a '97 993 for under $20,000
Seriously, why is anything worth anything? Why is a P.O.S. rustbucket from the '60s worth six figures at Barrett-Jackson? Because some sap with a checkbook says it is.
I think one reason used 993's are holding their value so well is that they're so beautiful and so desired that the "sap who knows very little about Porsches" market is interested in them.
11-29-2006, 12:37 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by TheOtherEric
Suddenly, Mark realized that those months of assertiveness training were finally paying off. Sorry, inside joke.
Mark- did I read it correctly that you offered $15,000?! Must be some paternal instincts or perhaps you're looking for a "rescuer" relationship...
Sorry, inside joke. Mark- did I read it correctly that you offered $15,000?! Must be some paternal instincts or perhaps you're looking for a "rescuer" relationship...
Good one, Eric. However, this thread is akin to kindergarten assertiveness training. My post-doc work in the field has honed my take-no-prisoners approach, one that almost requires that I take un-assertiveness training...Yes, I offered $15,000 for it. Andreas and I calculated what it would take to bring the car to a nominal level, about $5,000 with a mix of mechanic doing some work and me doing some. What we didn't assess over our sumptuous banquet of Burger King sandwiches and fries was the refreshening that the engine needed.
Last edited by Mark in Baltimore; 11-29-2006 at 01:53 PM.
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11-29-2006, 03:00 PM
#11
Instructor
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Been out trolling the internet sites for a possible replacement for my 964, this one did catch my eye for a possible look see. You just saved me an overnight hotel stay, 100 bucks in gas, and some heart burn from a greasy spoon restaurant where I probably would have eaten.
Thanks very much for the "RennFax" Report
Thanks very much for the "RennFax" Report
11-29-2006, 04:55 PM
#13
Seared
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Try as I might, I can think of nothing to add to Mark's very thorough description of that poor 993. It floored me to see such a level of neglect on a car that we all admire on so many levels. Not only should the previous owner be forced to lick every square inch of Autotechnik's filthy garage floor, but the dealer should be ashamed of themselves for presenting a car in this shape. Disgusting.
If that 993 was somehow gifted to me, I would certainly enjoy bringing it back to life - but at nearly $20,000, it was overpriced by a minimum of $5,000. Hopefully this information has been helpful to those seeking a low-mileage example.
I went home and gave my beloved 993 a big hug. And I promise to never let it fall into such disrepair!
Andreas
If that 993 was somehow gifted to me, I would certainly enjoy bringing it back to life - but at nearly $20,000, it was overpriced by a minimum of $5,000. Hopefully this information has been helpful to those seeking a low-mileage example.
I went home and gave my beloved 993 a big hug. And I promise to never let it fall into such disrepair!
Andreas
11-29-2006, 05:10 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Nice review.
I could have given you a heads up about autotechnik from an experience I had about 5yrs ago. They had a 91 928 advertised as near mint.
After calling and taking a trip to check it out, I found a tired neglected car in poor condition...not worth half the asking price. When I asked about taking it for a test drive, the keys were thrown to me for a solo ride and I was surprised as they didn't know me from adam.
The car started, barely, but was running in 4cyl mode (For those that don't know 928s have 8 ). The shocks were shot, the steering pulled severely to the right while accelerating and became worse upon braking. I didn't want to drive it more than 1/2mi as it remained in 4cyl mode.
I brought the car back, wrote up a list of what I believed the car needed and told him that once they got the motor running right, I'd give him a little over 1/2 the asking price. He said that they were aware of the problem stating it just needed a tune up. He agrred to give me a call once they sorted out the problem. I called them back (as they hadn't contacted me) about a week later and was told that they accepted my offer.
I went to check it out again only to find that the car was still running on only 4cyl. They said "Oh yeah, that just started happening the other day. Just needs a tuneup". Apparently they had forgotten what had transpired the week before. I rolled my eyes, called em a moron to his face, and left.
I could have given you a heads up about autotechnik from an experience I had about 5yrs ago. They had a 91 928 advertised as near mint.
After calling and taking a trip to check it out, I found a tired neglected car in poor condition...not worth half the asking price. When I asked about taking it for a test drive, the keys were thrown to me for a solo ride and I was surprised as they didn't know me from adam.
The car started, barely, but was running in 4cyl mode (For those that don't know 928s have 8
). The shocks were shot, the steering pulled severely to the right while accelerating and became worse upon braking. I didn't want to drive it more than 1/2mi as it remained in 4cyl mode.I brought the car back, wrote up a list of what I believed the car needed and told him that once they got the motor running right, I'd give him a little over 1/2 the asking price. He said that they were aware of the problem stating it just needed a tune up. He agrred to give me a call once they sorted out the problem. I called them back (as they hadn't contacted me) about a week later and was told that they accepted my offer.
I went to check it out again only to find that the car was still running on only 4cyl. They said "Oh yeah, that just started happening the other day. Just needs a tuneup". Apparently they had forgotten what had transpired the week before. I rolled my eyes, called em a moron to his face, and left.