Ninemeister article
09-09-2006, 02:45 AM
#151
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Simon
Are you 9M/4T's lawyer?
Do I need now to justify why I ask certain questions?
But just to dissipate any bad feelings on this interesting thread, I will say that I would like to have more information 1) since this is one of the key selling points used for the advertising of the heads and 2) I have about $100k+ invested in modifications for my car and always like to know who I am dealing with, expecially when I need to choose between suppliers that are about to build something that needs to last a 24hour race without any previous track record in a similar application (at least that I can check). If you are debating between different suppliers of the same products, wouldn't you want to know about their track records? You mentioned their excellent track record, where can I find some literature?
Here is one of their competitors for instance that has been developping products for Porsche for some time now and is/has been used in Porsche racing applications...http://www.perfectbore.com/aircooled.htm unless I can get my hands on "at least" the same amount of information from 4T than the one I get on the net and through asking some of the customer race teams that use the PB products, guess where my money is going?
The performance claims are the other selling point, which also need to be debated and challenged, there is no harm in that, I am the customer. People should not be afraid to ask the "stupid " questions, rather than to go with the "Wow" wave without further due diligence.
I am sure these products are excellent, and they also certainly improve performance, if you were to buy a performance car, would you only look at the nice rounded shape, smoothness of the paint and miles per gallon? What if your life was at stake at 200mph when you have mechanical failure? Wouldn't you want to know if the brakes will be good enough to stop it falwlessly 4000 times in a race?
There is a lot to learn from these forums over the years, tech debates are always healthy.
Are you 9M/4T's lawyer?
Do I need now to justify why I ask certain questions?
But just to dissipate any bad feelings on this interesting thread, I will say that I would like to have more information 1) since this is one of the key selling points used for the advertising of the heads and 2) I have about $100k+ invested in modifications for my car and always like to know who I am dealing with, expecially when I need to choose between suppliers that are about to build something that needs to last a 24hour race without any previous track record in a similar application (at least that I can check). If you are debating between different suppliers of the same products, wouldn't you want to know about their track records? You mentioned their excellent track record, where can I find some literature?
Here is one of their competitors for instance that has been developping products for Porsche for some time now and is/has been used in Porsche racing applications...http://www.perfectbore.com/aircooled.htm unless I can get my hands on "at least" the same amount of information from 4T than the one I get on the net and through asking some of the customer race teams that use the PB products, guess where my money is going?
The performance claims are the other selling point, which also need to be debated and challenged, there is no harm in that, I am the customer. People should not be afraid to ask the "stupid " questions, rather than to go with the "Wow" wave without further due diligence.
I am sure these products are excellent, and they also certainly improve performance, if you were to buy a performance car, would you only look at the nice rounded shape, smoothness of the paint and miles per gallon? What if your life was at stake at 200mph when you have mechanical failure? Wouldn't you want to know if the brakes will be good enough to stop it falwlessly 4000 times in a race?
There is a lot to learn from these forums over the years, tech debates are always healthy.
Last edited by Jean; 09-09-2006 at 03:35 AM.
09-09-2006, 05:42 AM
#152
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Jean
Firstly, as pointed out before, I have no affiliation at all with the company.
The thing I don't understand is that I personally don't care about what the company has done. If you think that a selling point is their track record, fine. To me the selling point is how much power is produced. It is a simple, black and white comparison. By your rules, if a new company with no track record starts up and produces the best products ever, you would not buy them but prefer to go to somewhere that has a proven track record but less power.
If you are looking for a guarantee of the product lasting, track record doesn't provide that either. Look at how often major car manufacturers design something wrong!
So, for me, your comments about wanting more information about the company appears to suggest you don't believe the story and are trying to discredit them. Now, if you are not, I appologise, but IMO, the figures talk for themselves and past history cannot change that. The problem with the internet is that it is too easy to misinterpret people and their motives
Firstly, as pointed out before, I have no affiliation at all with the company.
The thing I don't understand is that I personally don't care about what the company has done. If you think that a selling point is their track record, fine. To me the selling point is how much power is produced. It is a simple, black and white comparison. By your rules, if a new company with no track record starts up and produces the best products ever, you would not buy them but prefer to go to somewhere that has a proven track record but less power.
If you are looking for a guarantee of the product lasting, track record doesn't provide that either. Look at how often major car manufacturers design something wrong!
So, for me, your comments about wanting more information about the company appears to suggest you don't believe the story and are trying to discredit them. Now, if you are not, I appologise, but IMO, the figures talk for themselves and past history cannot change that. The problem with the internet is that it is too easy to misinterpret people and their motives
09-09-2006, 02:58 PM
#153
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I don't think Jean needs to prove anything on this board .. why is it a problem to understand that 4T is attached to the 9M product therefore people may well question who they are ?? I personally have never heard of them in association with motorsport, let alone F1 .. a google search does not turn them up, either.
I don't know why this is, but every time 9M comes up on one of the forums I frequent, every time someone questions things (and Jean is the champion of realistic comparison of actual power / torque / performance claims), they are decried for ignoring facts, being stupid or worse. Another UK tuner tried this with Jean (and others) and had to eat some embarassing retraction ..
Its all rather annoying, as Colin's record in the PCGB speed champs is pretty damn good .. he puts his products out for open challenge, and they are up to the mark. But on the forums, others (however well-intentioned) try to speak for him and generally come unstuck (sounding off before tuning in comes to mind). I've certainly had some absolute crap about supercharging flung at me, for instance ...
Having purchased all the printed articles on the billet heads in Total 911, they don't add much to the debate either. Some of Colin's (alleged) statements are rather arrogant, like 'this aspect of cylinder head design is the one that few tuners understand', but how much of this is journalistic licence I can't say ...
One aspect of the performance figures quoted that intrigued me rather, was that while Colin's RS racecar was lightest by a substantial margin, & quickest of all 0-30, 60, 100, and 150 (20.74 secs !), it was an also ran in the 3rd gear runs in 10 mph increments 40-80 mph ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear .. as it has billet heads (I assume) in conjunction with increased capacity it ought to have substantial torque throughout the mid range. Is the Motec not optimised ?
Enough rambling .. Jean is right to question, and has every right to do so without being insulted. Please keep the discussion rational !
cheers, Maurice
I don't know why this is, but every time 9M comes up on one of the forums I frequent, every time someone questions things (and Jean is the champion of realistic comparison of actual power / torque / performance claims), they are decried for ignoring facts, being stupid or worse. Another UK tuner tried this with Jean (and others) and had to eat some embarassing retraction ..
Its all rather annoying, as Colin's record in the PCGB speed champs is pretty damn good .. he puts his products out for open challenge, and they are up to the mark. But on the forums, others (however well-intentioned) try to speak for him and generally come unstuck (sounding off before tuning in comes to mind). I've certainly had some absolute crap about supercharging flung at me, for instance ...
Having purchased all the printed articles on the billet heads in Total 911, they don't add much to the debate either. Some of Colin's (alleged) statements are rather arrogant, like 'this aspect of cylinder head design is the one that few tuners understand', but how much of this is journalistic licence I can't say ...
One aspect of the performance figures quoted that intrigued me rather, was that while Colin's RS racecar was lightest by a substantial margin, & quickest of all 0-30, 60, 100, and 150 (20.74 secs !), it was an also ran in the 3rd gear runs in 10 mph increments 40-80 mph ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear .. as it has billet heads (I assume) in conjunction with increased capacity it ought to have substantial torque throughout the mid range. Is the Motec not optimised ?
Enough rambling .. Jean is right to question, and has every right to do so without being insulted. Please keep the discussion rational !
cheers, Maurice
09-09-2006, 04:25 PM
#154
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Originally Posted by maurice97C2S
I don't think Jean needs to prove anything on this board .. why is it a problem to understand that 4T is attached to the 9M product therefore people may well question who they are ?? I personally have never heard of them in association with motorsport, let alone F1 .. a google search does not turn them up, either.
I don't know why this is, but every time 9M comes up on one of the forums I frequent, every time someone questions things (and Jean is the champion of realistic comparison of actual power / torque / performance claims), they are decried for ignoring facts, being stupid or worse. Another UK tuner tried this with Jean (and others) and had to eat some embarassing retraction ..
Its all rather annoying, as Colin's record in the PCGB speed champs is pretty damn good .. he puts his products out for open challenge, and they are up to the mark. But on the forums, others (however well-intentioned) try to speak for him and generally come unstuck (sounding off before tuning in comes to mind). I've certainly had some absolute crap about supercharging flung at me, for instance ...
Having purchased all the printed articles on the billet heads in Total 911, they don't add much to the debate either. Some of Colin's (alleged) statements are rather arrogant, like 'this aspect of cylinder head design is the one that few tuners understand', but how much of this is journalistic licence I can't say ...
One aspect of the performance figures quoted that intrigued me rather, was that while Colin's RS racecar was lightest by a substantial margin, & quickest of all 0-30, 60, 100, and 150 (20.74 secs !), it was an also ran in the 3rd gear runs in 10 mph increments 40-80 mph ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear .. as it has billet heads (I assume) in conjunction with increased capacity it ought to have substantial torque throughout the mid range. Is the Motec not optimised ?
Enough rambling .. Jean is right to question, and has every right to do so without being insulted. Please keep the discussion rational !
I don't know why this is, but every time 9M comes up on one of the forums I frequent, every time someone questions things (and Jean is the champion of realistic comparison of actual power / torque / performance claims), they are decried for ignoring facts, being stupid or worse. Another UK tuner tried this with Jean (and others) and had to eat some embarassing retraction ..
Its all rather annoying, as Colin's record in the PCGB speed champs is pretty damn good .. he puts his products out for open challenge, and they are up to the mark. But on the forums, others (however well-intentioned) try to speak for him and generally come unstuck (sounding off before tuning in comes to mind). I've certainly had some absolute crap about supercharging flung at me, for instance ...
Having purchased all the printed articles on the billet heads in Total 911, they don't add much to the debate either. Some of Colin's (alleged) statements are rather arrogant, like 'this aspect of cylinder head design is the one that few tuners understand', but how much of this is journalistic licence I can't say ...
One aspect of the performance figures quoted that intrigued me rather, was that while Colin's RS racecar was lightest by a substantial margin, & quickest of all 0-30, 60, 100, and 150 (20.74 secs !), it was an also ran in the 3rd gear runs in 10 mph increments 40-80 mph ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear .. as it has billet heads (I assume) in conjunction with increased capacity it ought to have substantial torque throughout the mid range. Is the Motec not optimised ?
Enough rambling .. Jean is right to question, and has every right to do so without being insulted. Please keep the discussion rational !
An excellent post!
I have a serious stake in this discussion and do appreciate Jean and others putting pointed questions to 9M. And as Jean mentioned, it is a great deal of money. From some of the earlier statements made, many here do not have a realistic idea of the total cost of this conversion. I do.
Christer, I appreciate and share some of your thoughts but - and I do not mean to call you out - you stated earlier that your car(without 9M billet heads) produces ~315rwhp. Using a 16% loss factor, that would have your engine producing ~375bhp. When 9M states their billet heads, sport cams, and Motec will achieve ~360bhp, do you see the questions that arise? Perhaps 9M is lowballing the figures to disappoint none. I simply do not know, but it is a discrepancy. If there is misunderstanding on my part with your or 9M's statements, I do apologize. We are seeking to understand.
Finally, I believe what is often thought but never stated here is: "What's available/comparable here in the States?"
There are several fine North American tuners, yet of all the Rennlisters who own 3.6L na engines, I've never seen one post that compares with 9M's claims. Therein may lie the seed for doubters and skeptics. It may also prove to be 9M's trump card. Time will tell.
So I would ask; has anyone, stateside, achieved similar results? If so, how did you arrive at it - what modifications were made? What was the total cost? And of course, who did the work?
My best to all,
Noah
09-09-2006, 05:09 PM
#156
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Simon
Of course I believe that 4T has certain indirect dealings with motorsports and F1, it would not be very smart to say it otherwise. I was asking about their track record based on your earlier comments. You seemed to know much more than us readers here.
As far as for it to be relevant, each one has an opinion, before I use a performance component so critical in my car, I want to know what the builder has done before or talk to one of his customers, sounds normal to me, maybe not to you.
If you read my post before I did mention that the key selling points for this product were (seem to be) 4T's background AND performance (which I have made my own analysis and will not post here).
In any case, these products seem to be good, they don't have a history yet, typically, new products need to be tested in endurance racing environments in order to gain respected status, Porsche heads have, maybe these will some day too.
I have great respect for Colin and his work, I disagree with him on certain performance claims and style sometimes, but it does not mean that I want to discredit him at all, for the contrary I would be happy if it helps him question the products even more.
Of course I believe that 4T has certain indirect dealings with motorsports and F1, it would not be very smart to say it otherwise. I was asking about their track record based on your earlier comments. You seemed to know much more than us readers here.
As far as for it to be relevant, each one has an opinion, before I use a performance component so critical in my car, I want to know what the builder has done before or talk to one of his customers, sounds normal to me, maybe not to you.
If you read my post before I did mention that the key selling points for this product were (seem to be) 4T's background AND performance (which I have made my own analysis and will not post here).
In any case, these products seem to be good, they don't have a history yet, typically, new products need to be tested in endurance racing environments in order to gain respected status, Porsche heads have, maybe these will some day too.
I have great respect for Colin and his work, I disagree with him on certain performance claims and style sometimes, but it does not mean that I want to discredit him at all, for the contrary I would be happy if it helps him question the products even more.
09-09-2006, 05:35 PM
#157
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I find it funny that some, including Jean, think that the comment about "silly questions" were aimed at him 
And I have have no problem with people questioning power claims. However, I still cannot understand the relevence of the questions about 4T. Would a letter of endorsement from Ron Dennis or somebody similar add any extra power? Question the validity of the data, of power graphs etc. That is what counts. They may be the best F1 engineers in the world but it doesn't mean that they can design/build a Porsche head.
As for having more info than others, all it is based on is having met one of them. He didn't smell of BS, but maybe I had a cold which deadened my sense of smell
And I have have no problem with people questioning power claims. However, I still cannot understand the relevence of the questions about 4T. Would a letter of endorsement from Ron Dennis or somebody similar add any extra power? Question the validity of the data, of power graphs etc. That is what counts. They may be the best F1 engineers in the world but it doesn't mean that they can design/build a Porsche head.
As for having more info than others, all it is based on is having met one of them. He didn't smell of BS, but maybe I had a cold which deadened my sense of smell
09-10-2006, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by maurice97C2S
One aspect of the performance figures quoted that intrigued me rather, was that while Colin's RS racecar was lightest by a substantial margin, & quickest of all 0-30, 60, 100, and 150 (20.74 secs !), it was an also ran in the 3rd gear runs in 10 mph increments 40-80 mph ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear ..
As it does hillclimbs / sprints it is unlikely to have a tall 3rd gear ..
Well done Maurice to be the first one to point this out.
My car does indeed have relatively tall gearing because it has the standard G50/32 993RS CS transmission which is not ideal when combined with an engine that produces peak power above 7000rpm and revs to 8000rpm - I end up with 55mph in 1st gear, 83mph in 2nd, 108mph in 3rd and just 130mph in 4th. Unfortunately the magazine writer ailed to spot this anomaly and posted the times for the standard cars alongside my "off-cam" figures, whereas the 80-90 and 90-100 times for my car were in the order of 1.5 seconds from memory.
As for the other points raised:
Perfect Bore has discontinued their cylinder head programme due to production issues. At the last point of sale their heads were also more expensive in unfinished state than our finished heads. I believe that they are continuing with their piston & cylinder programme, using JE pistons with their cylinders.
4 Tech cannot disclose their client base for obvious confidentiality reasons, so whilst there is no obvious evidence to support this you will do not have a lot of choice but to accept that their designers have been and still are involved in F1 engine design. As Robin has stated previously, his experience was in trackside engine support for Ilmor whilst supporting Maclaren (before Mercedes bought Ilmor) and Managing Director Martin used to be the Chairman of Perfect Bore Liners Ltd (before they were purchased by PMI (JE, Weissco, Chambon, etc) .
09-10-2006, 03:16 PM
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Colin,
Just for information a very recent conversation with Perfect Bore confirmed that their head programme is still very active as well as the screw in liners.
All the best
Geoff
Just for information a very recent conversation with Perfect Bore confirmed that their head programme is still very active as well as the screw in liners.
All the best
Geoff
09-10-2006, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Red rooster
Colin,
Just for information a very recent conversation with Perfect Bore confirmed that their head programme is still very active as well as the screw in liners.
All the best
Geoff
Just for information a very recent conversation with Perfect Bore confirmed that their head programme is still very active as well as the screw in liners.
All the best
Geoff
They have now sold the stock and rights to the screw in liner.
09-10-2006, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Red rooster
Colin,
Yes, all available from Mark and his partners.
Geoff
Yes, all available from Mark and his partners.
Geoff
Noah
09-11-2006, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by N51
And the translation and pertinence to this thread being...
Noah
Noah
Originally Posted by Jean
Here is one of their competitors for instance that has been developping products for Porsche for some time now and is/has been used in Porsche racing applications...http://www.perfectbore.com/aircooled.htm unless I can get my hands on "at least" the same amount of information from 4T than the one I get on the net and through asking some of the customer race teams that use the PB products, guess where my money is going?
The standard range of PB cylinder heads had problems with casting quality and have now also been dropped.
The relevance to this thread is that a well known competitor of 4T has tried and failed to get into the Porsche cylinder head market. You can still buy PB cylinders (and very good they are too), JE pistons & Carillo rods (also owned by the PMI group), but in spite of the amount of information available on the internet to the contrary you cannot buy PB heads and valve train parts.
In contrast 9m/4T parts have been in development for over 3 years and we will not sell anything unless we have tested the parts in our own engines. The intention is to support the following 9m & 4T aircooled engine parts by spring 2007:
964/993/GT3 80mm stroker crank
Connecting rods, various lengths, std & custom fit
100/102/103 pistons & cylinders
930*/964/993/993TT* cylinder heads
Valves, springs*, retainers
Cam follower (race version to achieve up to 15mm lift)*
Sport, sprint & race cam profiles
Intake system
The parts marked * are still in the design phase.
09-11-2006, 07:46 AM
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[QUOTE=NineMeister]Well done Maurice to be the first one to point this out.
My car does indeed have relatively tall gearing because it has the standard G50/32 993RS CS transmission which is not ideal when combined with an engine that produces peak power above 7000rpm and revs to 8000rpm - I end up with 55mph in 1st gear, 83mph in 2nd, 108mph in 3rd and just 130mph in 4th. QUOTE]
This gearbox is patently holding you back ... tell you what, I'll do you a straight swap for my /20 ... lower gears should help you up the hills no end !
cheers, Maurice
My car does indeed have relatively tall gearing because it has the standard G50/32 993RS CS transmission which is not ideal when combined with an engine that produces peak power above 7000rpm and revs to 8000rpm - I end up with 55mph in 1st gear, 83mph in 2nd, 108mph in 3rd and just 130mph in 4th. QUOTE]
This gearbox is patently holding you back ... tell you what, I'll do you a straight swap for my /20 ... lower gears should help you up the hills no end !
cheers, Maurice
09-11-2006, 11:01 AM
#165
Originally Posted by N51
Christer, I appreciate and share some of your thoughts but - and I do not mean to call you out - you stated earlier that your car(without 9M billet heads) produces ~315rwhp. Using a 16% loss factor, that would have your engine producing ~375bhp. When 9M states their billet heads, sport cams, and Motec will achieve ~360bhp, do you see the questions that arise? Perhaps 9M is lowballing the figures to disappoint none. I simply do not know, but it is a discrepancy. If there is misunderstanding on my part with your or 9M's statements, I do apologize. We are seeking to understand.
Noah
It is possible though, that your 16% is total horses*it of course, but you would rather assume that is correct than look at the actual rwhp figures for the billet-head cars.....which are higher than mine......and I have never claimed otherwise. I have never referred to FWHP. In any case, these results are all unproven according to a lot of people on the forums so it is just a reference point in my mind. If you add that to the fact that the only thing you know about my car is that it does not have the billet heads and your question is ridiculous
Maybe the right question is 'if your car makes 310rwhp without the heads, what can they do with them'? I have a feeling the difference is not going to be that great - but who knows, maybe I will find out one day....?