Jean

Colin, this explanation makes perfect sense. I was a bit surprised and taken aback by some of Simon's comments about looks, smoothness and flow etc..but I am not an engineer and maybe he is, so I won't comment.

I asked above if there are any available links or literature that would be of interest to read about the track record of 4T in the Formula 1 business and racing in general as mentioned by SimonExtreme, any available links please?

Finally , about performance, the acceleration run in your car is phenomenal, is this the same 415BHP car that you had or now it has a different engine setup?

My calculations are showing that the other 993s are in the 320HP range rather than 360HP, I might be doing something wrong, but this is what I have concluded

Could you please share in private the Raw data of your posted AX 22 (or DL1) run, I can add it to the database we already have. Thanks

Red rooster

N51,
OBDII is a motor management system that continually checks for emmisions levels and does its best to keep them within legislated levels.
The whole set up puts constraints on what performance parts can be succesfully used.
For camshafts , probably inlet/exhaust overlap is the major danger area.
If Colin or an owner could measure the four exhaust gases pre cat, at idle and light load that would be a start to seeing if these cams may present a problem.
I certainly am not saying they are a problem but the UK requirements for 993 emmissions are dramatically different to say California !
Who could take pleasure in buying/fitting this conversion and then having to remove it for the annual check ??
Thats why I wondered what the heads on their own would do . Cannot see a problem there.

All the best

Geoff

dbf73

Geoff - you could always swap a tired but good stock engine in and out for the emissions check.

SimonExtreme

It's maybe because I am not an engineer that my discription was poor! However, I have seen a fair number of flowed heads over the years which is why I said these look right. I am sorry if my discription did the heads an injustice

One thing to expand on is the comment Colin made This is what I meant by smoother. The "bowl" on the 993 head is very noticable and even to an untrained eye, just seems wrong. Now, I accept that a better person than me designed it, which is why I keep asking the same question of "why". I find the "got the numbers wrong" explination hard to swallow and suspect there is another reason. I would suspect either there was a finacial reason driving the design or maybe even a drawing error. It could even be totally deliberate, to limit the power!

Christer

My take on this is that we should let Colin do his own talking. What are you guys doing? Why are you doing it? My engine was built by Colin some 2 years ago now and I love it and have never made a secret of it, but I do think that when others get involved on his behalf it just makes it look 'worse'....if you see what I mean. I understand you have enthusiasm and I share your appreciation and admiration of what Colin is doing but I just think that you are not helping now - just let Colin handle his own affairs so that hopefully all the questions and doubts are answered by the person who knows best. I think Colin is capable of looking after himself. All IMHO of course.

SimonExtreme

Christer

I don't know if your comments are aimed at me and while I respect some of what you say, this isn't a case of "getting involved on his behalf". He showed me the heads and as there are so many people who are interested, I thought it reasonable to post my impressions. If they had been negative, I would still have posted them as I have no affiliation, although I am likely to become a customer very soon. In the same way, when people questioned his rolling road, I will post my own experiences of it.

I have also commented on other tuners, parts etc on forums. Surely that is what a forum is for, an exchange of views and information. To me, the people who you should be directing your comments to aren't the ones that who are passing on their personal experiences of Colin or his equipment, but those who ask stupid and inane questions and who seem to be more interested in attacking or discrediting somebody they don't know or whose products they have no experience of.

And yes, Colin is more than capable of doing his own talking or in his case, allowing his product to do the talking for him.

Jean

Can you pinpoint some of those stupid members who ask stupid questions please? Maybe we should ask John D. to ban them from this "technical" forum?

SimonExtreme

No! But if the hat fits, I guess people will wear it

pcar964

A lot of good questions have been asked, and some good answers have been given. I don't think it's a problem.

NineMeister

Maybe Robin can post links if he drops in for a look soon, otherwise all I can give you is the information on our mutual site: www.4tech-9m.com


The engine in my RSR is still the same 3.82 litre that I have been running for over 18 months, I have always quoted the power at 415 because this was an average of the chassis dyno results. The best ever dyno pull recorded around 430, but this is academic, all I know is that my car runs at a similar lap time as GT3 Cup car and regularly beats a GT3RS on sprints by 5 seconds a lap which is fast enough for a 993RS on stock suspension.

That said I would be interested in the maths that you are using to evaluate the performance, perhaps we could trade each other - you send the spreadsheet and I'll send the AX22 file?

Christer

Simon, all I am saying is that Colin is the only person in this case who can answer certain questions posed by various 'stupid' people. Of course, you are very welcome to air your views and give us your opinion on the heads, all I am saying is that it does come across as somewhat biased whether you mean it or not. As I have already said, I have already been a client of Colin's for a long(ish) time - I believe my car was one of the first that went beyond the Motec +1/2 packages and I am very happy with the work that was carried out. I do appreciate though that in cases like this, we have a responsibility to be impartial unless we do have an affiliation. With all due respect you are not a client of Colin's and therefore I presume you do not have any first-hand, long-term experience of his expertise and results? That is why I ask myself the question 'What is he doing?'. No offence intended and this is only my view - I do not mean in any way to pick a fight - I am just pointing out that sometimes these very positive arguments are not helping - as you yourself point out - you are no engineer.

I look forward to seeing more information and data even though I think my 'mods fund' is still fairly empty after the last round of work....

Jean

Colin

Thanks for the link, it is a nice website. But I am looking for some published information about the track record of 4T in Motorsports and F1.

My basis for comparison is quite simple and simiplistic, it takes rather similar cars (N/A) and compares their KG/HP ratios with their performance between two speeds. 0-60mph numbers are obviously meaningless in relation to HP, since they have to do more with launch technique and launch control electronics and driver skills, so they are disregarded.

I compared vs 5 other cars with published results, a factory stock C2 non vario with 272HP, a factory 993RS with 300HP, a factory 996GT3RS, a factory GT3, and two other tuner cars with claimed 320 and 325 HP. All the information is available such as tested weight and intermediary speeds etc..

As far as your car, beating a GT3 CUP on the track or a GT3 by 5 seconds is not proof of the 415BHP, you are an experienced driver. The 60-130mph numbers that you posted are a much better performance barometer.

I PM'd the comparison to you, and thanks for sending the AX22 run, I will take a look at them during the week end.

mister2cute

hey all, i have recently used ninemeister for a minor repair and can vouch for their operation being top drawer - by the way i'm a new member from manchester england - nice to meet you all

SimonExtreme

The only biase is towards decent engineering. If it were rubish I would also not be shy in saying so.

Surely somebody who isn't (yet) a client is in a better position to comment than somebody who is. Having been around race cars and tuning for about 30 years I have become a serious sceptic who does significant research before handing over any money. I have been speaking to Colin and his clients for over a year. I have seen his work on rolling roads and on the track and have driven cars he has worked on. Having seen so many bad tuners over the years and having ended up in dispute with one in particular (long story but thankfully not as a customer), I am super cautious. I also think I am fairly well qualified to pass comment, not only having been a customer of various tuners but also having built engines myself and also mapped cars (although most of that experience is with forced induction).



I say I am not an engineer because I don't have any formal qualifications and I don't earn my living doing it. I believe I have the experience to comment.

If you feel that my positive endorsement is a negative, I am sorry. What really winds me up is when good tuning is knocked by people who don't understand and who seem to like nothing better than to use the internet to attack tuners for no other reason than their own satisfaction.

Conversely, I also hate to see tuners who cannot produce what they claim using forums to push their business. I just hate seeing people ripped off.

In regard to this particular thread, it seems that I am the only person posting who is in the same country, has researched what Colin is doing but has no affiliation to him and as such, it seems only fair to post what I have seen and learnt.

SimonExtreme

Jean

Sorry for asking but why do you want this information. Do you not believe the claims?

I might be wrong but I doubt you will find much about them just as you are unlikely to find info on a whole host of specialist consultancies that work in the top end of motorsport.

Think about it for a moment. Suppose you are Mercedes and are having a problem with your F1 engines. I wouldn't want anybody to know I was using an outside consultancy and couldn't solve the problem in house. I would want to use a company that kept a very low profile and who would respect confidentiality.