Where is the thread on the 415hp NA conversion?
07-12-2005, 07:21 AM
#61
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1.) How long will the engine last?
Difficult to answer with authority since the data collated to date has been from one engine through three build specs. When we designed the parts the target life (flat out on track) was 30hrs between top end refresh and 60 hrs to bearings. Judging by the development parts removed we should easily achieve this target.
2.) Is it a race engine or a street engine?
It is definitely thought of as a track engine. What I mean by that is that although it is flexible and can easily be driven on the street it is more at home on the track, therefore in the full specification as tested I would say that it was 90% track 10% street.
3.) How does the dyno look like?
4.) On what fuel are we talking about?
I ran it on UK super unleaded 98RON (shell optimax) which I believe is roughly equivalent to US 93/94
5.) Is it with mufflers and cats?
As tested the engine was running through a pair of 100cell cats and silencers, recently sound tested at 99-101dBa at 0.5m from one exhaust tip.
6.) What engine block are we building this engine from?
This actual engine started life as a 993RS unit, but my previous version of the engine had 964 crankcases.
7.) Can everything be modified as long as it's N/A?
You can build an identical engine from any 3.6 atmo engine.
8.) Under what economy is this supposed to be done?
The bill of parts for the core engine is around £11k, which consists of heads, valves/springs/retainers, pistons, rings, barrels, rods, bearings & cams. Any regular 911 specialist could assemble the parts & windage port the cases as required. Additional parts required are the intake system, exhaust system and engine management.
9.) When talking about knowledge, is everything supposed to be done by one person or can, for example, the mapping be done by someone else?
The engine does not need specialist knowledge to build. As long as you can assemble a 911 engine and time the cams correctly you could assemble a similar engine and achieve similar results. Mapping is another story altogether, to get the best out of any engine you need someone who really knows what they are doing.
There are plenty of things to point out here, but in general:
Is 400hp from a N/A M64 engine something special?
Yes, for most people. For good engine builders, no it's not
I agree, although I would be intrigued to see anyone else's results (especially Micke Svens 3.2).
Difficult to answer with authority since the data collated to date has been from one engine through three build specs. When we designed the parts the target life (flat out on track) was 30hrs between top end refresh and 60 hrs to bearings. Judging by the development parts removed we should easily achieve this target.
2.) Is it a race engine or a street engine?
It is definitely thought of as a track engine. What I mean by that is that although it is flexible and can easily be driven on the street it is more at home on the track, therefore in the full specification as tested I would say that it was 90% track 10% street.
3.) How does the dyno look like?
4.) On what fuel are we talking about?
I ran it on UK super unleaded 98RON (shell optimax) which I believe is roughly equivalent to US 93/94
5.) Is it with mufflers and cats?
As tested the engine was running through a pair of 100cell cats and silencers, recently sound tested at 99-101dBa at 0.5m from one exhaust tip.
6.) What engine block are we building this engine from?
This actual engine started life as a 993RS unit, but my previous version of the engine had 964 crankcases.
7.) Can everything be modified as long as it's N/A?
You can build an identical engine from any 3.6 atmo engine.
8.) Under what economy is this supposed to be done?
The bill of parts for the core engine is around £11k, which consists of heads, valves/springs/retainers, pistons, rings, barrels, rods, bearings & cams. Any regular 911 specialist could assemble the parts & windage port the cases as required. Additional parts required are the intake system, exhaust system and engine management.
9.) When talking about knowledge, is everything supposed to be done by one person or can, for example, the mapping be done by someone else?
The engine does not need specialist knowledge to build. As long as you can assemble a 911 engine and time the cams correctly you could assemble a similar engine and achieve similar results. Mapping is another story altogether, to get the best out of any engine you need someone who really knows what they are doing.
There are plenty of things to point out here, but in general:
Is 400hp from a N/A M64 engine something special?
Yes, for most people. For good engine builders, no it's not
I agree, although I would be intrigued to see anyone else's results (especially Micke Svens 3.2).
07-12-2005, 09:19 AM
#62
Originally Posted by NineMeister
1.) How long will the engine last?
Difficult to answer with authority since the data collated to date has been from one engine through three build specs. When we designed the parts the target life (flat out on track) was 30hrs between top end refresh and 60 hrs to bearings. Judging by the development parts removed we should easily achieve this target.
2.) Is it a race engine or a street engine?
It is definitely thought of as a track engine. What I mean by that is that although it is flexible and can easily be driven on the street it is more at home on the track, therefore in the full specification as tested I would say that it was 90% track 10% street.
3.) How does the dyno look like?
4.) On what fuel are we talking about?
I ran it on UK super unleaded 98RON (shell optimax) which I believe is roughly equivalent to US 93/94
5.) Is it with mufflers and cats?
As tested the engine was running through a pair of 100cell cats and silencers, recently sound tested at 99-101dBa at 0.5m from one exhaust tip.
6.) What engine block are we building this engine from?
This actual engine started life as a 993RS unit, but my previous version of the engine had 964 crankcases.
7.) Can everything be modified as long as it's N/A?
You can build an identical engine from any 3.6 atmo engine.
8.) Under what economy is this supposed to be done?
The bill of parts for the core engine is around £11k, which consists of heads, valves/springs/retainers, pistons, rings, barrels, rods, bearings & cams. Any regular 911 specialist could assemble the parts & windage port the cases as required. Additional parts required are the intake system, exhaust system and engine management.
9.) When talking about knowledge, is everything supposed to be done by one person or can, for example, the mapping be done by someone else?
The engine does not need specialist knowledge to build. As long as you can assemble a 911 engine and time the cams correctly you could assemble a similar engine and achieve similar results. Mapping is another story altogether, to get the best out of any engine you need someone who really knows what they are doing.
There are plenty of things to point out here, but in general:
Is 400hp from a N/A M64 engine something special?
Yes, for most people. For good engine builders, no it's not
I agree, although I would be intrigued to see anyone else's results (especially Micke Svens 3.2).
Difficult to answer with authority since the data collated to date has been from one engine through three build specs. When we designed the parts the target life (flat out on track) was 30hrs between top end refresh and 60 hrs to bearings. Judging by the development parts removed we should easily achieve this target.
2.) Is it a race engine or a street engine?
It is definitely thought of as a track engine. What I mean by that is that although it is flexible and can easily be driven on the street it is more at home on the track, therefore in the full specification as tested I would say that it was 90% track 10% street.
3.) How does the dyno look like?
4.) On what fuel are we talking about?
I ran it on UK super unleaded 98RON (shell optimax) which I believe is roughly equivalent to US 93/94
5.) Is it with mufflers and cats?
As tested the engine was running through a pair of 100cell cats and silencers, recently sound tested at 99-101dBa at 0.5m from one exhaust tip.
6.) What engine block are we building this engine from?
This actual engine started life as a 993RS unit, but my previous version of the engine had 964 crankcases.
7.) Can everything be modified as long as it's N/A?
You can build an identical engine from any 3.6 atmo engine.
8.) Under what economy is this supposed to be done?
The bill of parts for the core engine is around £11k, which consists of heads, valves/springs/retainers, pistons, rings, barrels, rods, bearings & cams. Any regular 911 specialist could assemble the parts & windage port the cases as required. Additional parts required are the intake system, exhaust system and engine management.
9.) When talking about knowledge, is everything supposed to be done by one person or can, for example, the mapping be done by someone else?
The engine does not need specialist knowledge to build. As long as you can assemble a 911 engine and time the cams correctly you could assemble a similar engine and achieve similar results. Mapping is another story altogether, to get the best out of any engine you need someone who really knows what they are doing.
There are plenty of things to point out here, but in general:
Is 400hp from a N/A M64 engine something special?
Yes, for most people. For good engine builders, no it's not
I agree, although I would be intrigued to see anyone else's results (especially Micke Svens 3.2).
Now here is a thing.. Many of the people who worked with air cooled engines, especially tuning and have good knowledge of them, are not really internet people. By saying that, I'm refering to that they have done this for many years and are not really interested in going on the "net" after building engines for the last 20 air cooled years. Neither do they feel a need to show proof, since most of them have good reputation already.
If you'd like to know how other people did it, I can provide 4-5 phonenumbers, where you'd find enough knowledge and results to build this. I'm not sure how happy they are to talk about tuning 911:s to their competitors, but you can always try. However I dont really see the point, since you mentioned yourself, that anyone with competence of working with 911 engines are able to do this.
Since I'm not part of the debate, I think I will leave things here and only fill in with information if someone asks.
I wish the best of luck and joy.
Cheers
07-12-2005, 01:33 PM
#63
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Rassel,
No, we do not have temperature issues, the heads run a constant 150C under load on track which is pretty much normal. I must admit that I would struggle to understand why head temps are a problem in a 400bhp engine, when the turbo boys (hello again Jean) are pushing 750bhp and possibly 225C temperature without problems.
Thanks for the offer of contact numbers regarding fellow tuners but I know who you are talking about and I doubt that we would have a lot to offer each other. I think the only difference between my engine and theirs is that all the parts are available off the shelf (OK, so it's my shelf) and so anyone with basic engine knowledge could do the same given the same parts.
Unfortunately, being a relative newcomer (only been in the game for 15yrs) and nowhere near retirement I have to spread the word a bit more than the good ole boys, and unlike in the pre-internet days everybody now wants proof, hence why I would prefer to be open with information for the good of the cause.
No, we do not have temperature issues, the heads run a constant 150C under load on track which is pretty much normal. I must admit that I would struggle to understand why head temps are a problem in a 400bhp engine, when the turbo boys (hello again Jean) are pushing 750bhp and possibly 225C temperature without problems.
Thanks for the offer of contact numbers regarding fellow tuners but I know who you are talking about and I doubt that we would have a lot to offer each other. I think the only difference between my engine and theirs is that all the parts are available off the shelf (OK, so it's my shelf) and so anyone with basic engine knowledge could do the same given the same parts.
Unfortunately, being a relative newcomer (only been in the game for 15yrs) and nowhere near retirement I have to spread the word a bit more than the good ole boys, and unlike in the pre-internet days everybody now wants proof, hence why I would prefer to be open with information for the good of the cause.
07-12-2005, 03:40 PM
#65
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Rassel,
I would rather not disclose the exact compression since it has taken us a while to work out what runs best on pump gas with the cams we are using, but it is over 12:1.
The engine is running on a Motec M48 Pro, although I have plans to upgrade to the M600 soon.
I would rather not disclose the exact compression since it has taken us a while to work out what runs best on pump gas with the cams we are using, but it is over 12:1.
The engine is running on a Motec M48 Pro, although I have plans to upgrade to the M600 soon.
07-13-2005, 03:54 AM
#66
I can see the point in not telling that, however if I where a customer I'd like to know such things...
Anyway, isn't the 993RSR running a 3.8L engine not a 3.6L?
According to your dyno you have pMax at 7.400rpm. That concerns me a bit, since it seems on the dyno that you don't have much rpm left after that. Even though it's a track engine and should be considered highrev, it seems like the high running rpm for pMax would result in hitting the limiter almost instantly after. I know that the Japanese Cup 3.8 version (M64/80) had pMax at 7.000rpm and nMax at 7.400 rpm. This is only 400rpm after, not giving much "space" for shifting and is one of the most aggresive settings coming out from Porsche Motorsport. (GT3 has +800rpm after pMax)
Anyway, isn't the 993RSR running a 3.8L engine not a 3.6L?
According to your dyno you have pMax at 7.400rpm. That concerns me a bit, since it seems on the dyno that you don't have much rpm left after that. Even though it's a track engine and should be considered highrev, it seems like the high running rpm for pMax would result in hitting the limiter almost instantly after. I know that the Japanese Cup 3.8 version (M64/80) had pMax at 7.000rpm and nMax at 7.400 rpm. This is only 400rpm after, not giving much "space" for shifting and is one of the most aggresive settings coming out from Porsche Motorsport. (GT3 has +800rpm after pMax)
07-13-2005, 06:57 AM
#67
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Rassel,
If you were a customer, I would probably tell you........
The engine is a 3.82 litre.
Your point regarding Pmax being close to Nmax is a good one. Aside from the fact that every standard 993RS engine we have tested hits Pmax at the rev limiter (if it's good enough for Porsche.....), this is definitely an aspect we would like to address further. The dyno result looks bad because I cut short the run at just under 200mph (40mph above the max speed recommended by Bosch) and as mentioned before I could not test properly in a lower gear due to wheelspin. However given a typical gearchange rpm drop of 1500rpm at 6300 there is 376bhp on tap; a high gear drop of 1000rpm hits 406bhp at 6800.
The 8000rpm upper limit is of course down to the oiling limitations of the stock 964/993 crankshaft so we have plans to rebuild the engine using a 996GT3 crank. The GT3 is known to safely rev beyond 9000rpm, so this crank will allow us to over-rev the engine and gain a greater area under the power curve. Please also keep in mind that we are running with factory headers, it should be a safe bet that you could tune the engine to produce peak power lower down the rev range with longer equal length primary tubes.
On the subject of crank loadings, the rev limiter is currently set at 7800rpm with a hard cut at 8000rpm which on the face of it seems high. However the main difference between this engine and the factory motorsport engine is that we are using short skirt pistons that result in a 20% reduction in reciprocating weight over the factory design. Our long (steel) rod results in reduced piston acceleration at overlap TDC, the highest rod load point in a normally aspirated engine. Therefore a clever bit of maths confirms that the rod tension of the 9m engine at 8000rpm is 4664lbs, whereas the factory engine at 7400rpm is 5033lbs so the conclusion is that if it was not for the standard cranks oiling problem, we could run within factory endurance load specifications at a heady 8200rpm.
Perhaps now you will have a little more of an insight into the total engineering that we have gone through in order to build an engine that will actually last and be relatively inexpensive to refresh.
If you were a customer, I would probably tell you........
The engine is a 3.82 litre.
Your point regarding Pmax being close to Nmax is a good one. Aside from the fact that every standard 993RS engine we have tested hits Pmax at the rev limiter (if it's good enough for Porsche.....), this is definitely an aspect we would like to address further. The dyno result looks bad because I cut short the run at just under 200mph (40mph above the max speed recommended by Bosch) and as mentioned before I could not test properly in a lower gear due to wheelspin. However given a typical gearchange rpm drop of 1500rpm at 6300 there is 376bhp on tap; a high gear drop of 1000rpm hits 406bhp at 6800.
The 8000rpm upper limit is of course down to the oiling limitations of the stock 964/993 crankshaft so we have plans to rebuild the engine using a 996GT3 crank. The GT3 is known to safely rev beyond 9000rpm, so this crank will allow us to over-rev the engine and gain a greater area under the power curve. Please also keep in mind that we are running with factory headers, it should be a safe bet that you could tune the engine to produce peak power lower down the rev range with longer equal length primary tubes.
On the subject of crank loadings, the rev limiter is currently set at 7800rpm with a hard cut at 8000rpm which on the face of it seems high. However the main difference between this engine and the factory motorsport engine is that we are using short skirt pistons that result in a 20% reduction in reciprocating weight over the factory design. Our long (steel) rod results in reduced piston acceleration at overlap TDC, the highest rod load point in a normally aspirated engine. Therefore a clever bit of maths confirms that the rod tension of the 9m engine at 8000rpm is 4664lbs, whereas the factory engine at 7400rpm is 5033lbs so the conclusion is that if it was not for the standard cranks oiling problem, we could run within factory endurance load specifications at a heady 8200rpm.
Perhaps now you will have a little more of an insight into the total engineering that we have gone through in order to build an engine that will actually last and be relatively inexpensive to refresh.
