how can i learn to countersteer the car w/o a bad day?
01-15-2005, 11:15 AM
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how can i learn to countersteer the car w/o a bad day?
As a serious question, how can i learn to balance my car with the rear out and use some countersteer to control it? i ask b/c everytime i feel the rear go out at the track, i have spun as it was too late (usually left hander at limerock).
As i dont want my beautiful TT in the bodyshop, what is the best way to begin to get a better feel for this; i always get rides with better drivers who are about to countersteer the car and therefore have much higher confidence that nothing bad will happen as they can save themselves.
on a similar note, whenever i see a good driver spin, they often just spin in one spot and then stop. Ive only spun 2 times, but every time i went sliding about 30 feet - fortunately i never hit anything besides grass and the track curb.
do i need a skid pad? or perhaps i need an airport runway? (seems JFK is never available for my turbo)
As i dont want my beautiful TT in the bodyshop, what is the best way to begin to get a better feel for this; i always get rides with better drivers who are about to countersteer the car and therefore have much higher confidence that nothing bad will happen as they can save themselves.
on a similar note, whenever i see a good driver spin, they often just spin in one spot and then stop. Ive only spun 2 times, but every time i went sliding about 30 feet - fortunately i never hit anything besides grass and the track curb.
do i need a skid pad? or perhaps i need an airport runway? (seems JFK is never available for my turbo)
01-15-2005, 12:17 PM
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Auto cross might help. Doing some indoor karting would also be a help. But most of all it takes time and practice.
Read Skip Barber's book and the sections about correcting slides. Most beginners do two things wrong, IMO. They don't correct enough, and they hold the correction for too long/too late. One of my most enlightening rides was with a friend who does some pro sports car racing and I saw how much (and how quickly) he made corrections. I swore we had wrecked at Turn one at Mid Ohio, we turned in and the front of the car was facing the inside of the turn at a very sharp angle (think rally sideways). I wanted to close my eyes and wait for the crunch but I didn't and watched my friend give the wheel a huge correction and stay on the gas. His correction was over a 1/2 turn of the wheel and then a very quick release. The car was always balanced perfectly and never missed a step. I was in awe and realized what I had been doing wrong. Then I read Skip Barber's book and it confirmed it again.
It took me another year to get to the level where I could correct an oversteer slide in a fast corner without losing a ton of time. Most of it I learned while racing. Competition makes you do things you didn't think you could.
Riding with other drivers will help if you are paying attention to what the car is doing and the driver's inputs. Honestly it just takes time.
Read Skip Barber's book and the sections about correcting slides. Most beginners do two things wrong, IMO. They don't correct enough, and they hold the correction for too long/too late. One of my most enlightening rides was with a friend who does some pro sports car racing and I saw how much (and how quickly) he made corrections. I swore we had wrecked at Turn one at Mid Ohio, we turned in and the front of the car was facing the inside of the turn at a very sharp angle (think rally sideways). I wanted to close my eyes and wait for the crunch but I didn't and watched my friend give the wheel a huge correction and stay on the gas. His correction was over a 1/2 turn of the wheel and then a very quick release. The car was always balanced perfectly and never missed a step. I was in awe and realized what I had been doing wrong. Then I read Skip Barber's book and it confirmed it again.
It took me another year to get to the level where I could correct an oversteer slide in a fast corner without losing a ton of time. Most of it I learned while racing. Competition makes you do things you didn't think you could.
Riding with other drivers will help if you are paying attention to what the car is doing and the driver's inputs. Honestly it just takes time.
01-15-2005, 01:08 PM
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Greg is right, as usual, but a safer, more hands on approach might be a Costco parking lot. You live in NY, find a good large open lot and have a blast on a snowy or at least wet day. While you will be a much lower speeds than on a track it will give you a pretty good idea of the "type" of corrections that have to be made. You will be able to pull off some good drifting maneuvers like pitching the car right and left, and learning what the point of no return is.
As for the the pros only spinning once. The rule is both feet (clutch and brake) in and in hard and fast. They don't normally spin more than once hey can feel it coming on and make the quick corrections that Greg talked lessening the severity of the spin.
As for the the pros only spinning once. The rule is both feet (clutch and brake) in and in hard and fast. They don't normally spin more than once hey can feel it coming on and make the quick corrections that Greg talked lessening the severity of the spin.
01-15-2005, 01:40 PM
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Autox, like mentioned above, is a pretty good environment as is wet (or ice filled) parking lots without light poles and other cars.
I had some good rides with really good drivers on dry tracks. One of -the- moments that sticks in my head was at Streets of Willow riding with a buddy who is a great driver (won a SRF race last year). We were in his Boxster and started to lose it at a corner exit. He quickly added some opposite lock, which after a microsecond or so, he knew that wasnt enough do he let go of the wheel for a few more microseconds and the car kinda went where it needed to go and all was good. Lost time, but didnt spin.
When I turned 16, I lived in Colorado and it was Feb. So me and a good friend often went to a HUGE parking lot east of town. No light poles, no cars and all covered in snow. We did this primarily for some out of control fun, but later turned out to be valuable lessons with car control.
Not that I have car control now
, but I feel this has helped me to this date. Something that sticks with you forever, or at least I hope...
I had some good rides with really good drivers on dry tracks. One of -the- moments that sticks in my head was at Streets of Willow riding with a buddy who is a great driver (won a SRF race last year). We were in his Boxster and started to lose it at a corner exit. He quickly added some opposite lock, which after a microsecond or so, he knew that wasnt enough do he let go of the wheel for a few more microseconds and the car kinda went where it needed to go and all was good. Lost time, but didnt spin.
When I turned 16, I lived in Colorado and it was Feb. So me and a good friend often went to a HUGE parking lot east of town. No light poles, no cars and all covered in snow. We did this primarily for some out of control fun, but later turned out to be valuable lessons with car control.
Not that I have car control now
, but I feel this has helped me to this date. Something that sticks with you forever, or at least I hope...
01-15-2005, 01:53 PM
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Rob:
Check with various car clubs around you for those who might be hosting a "car control clinic". Many of the BMWCCA chapters follow this format as a requirement to attend a HPDE event. Personally, I find these clinics valuable to drivers at all level of skills development as you can practice basic skill in a very controlled and measured way.
Car control clinics usually consist if a threshold braking / accident avoidance exercise, skid pad/throttle steering exercise and a slalom exercise. Driving the car in a "set" or with the rear "stepped out" is usually practiced on the skidpad. As you gain comfort and control, you can actually watch your progress as your speed around the skid pad increases and your hand/foot motions become very smooth. The exercise is quite eye opening !
Happy ventures...
Check with various car clubs around you for those who might be hosting a "car control clinic". Many of the BMWCCA chapters follow this format as a requirement to attend a HPDE event. Personally, I find these clinics valuable to drivers at all level of skills development as you can practice basic skill in a very controlled and measured way.
Car control clinics usually consist if a threshold braking / accident avoidance exercise, skid pad/throttle steering exercise and a slalom exercise. Driving the car in a "set" or with the rear "stepped out" is usually practiced on the skidpad. As you gain comfort and control, you can actually watch your progress as your speed around the skid pad increases and your hand/foot motions become very smooth. The exercise is quite eye opening !
Happy ventures...
01-15-2005, 01:54 PM
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Besides the great advice above, another terrific thing about autocrossing is that you will learn how to set your tire pressures correctly, too. When you get this dialed in properly, your car will react better & with more predictability.
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01-15-2005, 04:27 PM
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Hi Rob,
You're not learning how to "countersteer" as much as you're learning how to control the car. More true on rear-engine cars than any other, the balance between the throttle and steering is what you want to learn. Moreover, doing this in a big lot doesn't help much since you need boundaries! That's why a proper DE (1st choice, then auto-x 2nd choice) with cones is the best environment to learn car control. After all, how do you know if you're truly "controling" the car if you're making these huge arcs in a lot where on the road that same arc (which you've learned how to do so well in that same lot) is right in the path of a large oak, or on-coming traffic!! And spins DO happen to the best of us. The goal is to feel it coming, know it's there, and keep it on this side of "the edge." Hope this helps
Edward
You're not learning how to "countersteer" as much as you're learning how to control the car. More true on rear-engine cars than any other, the balance between the throttle and steering is what you want to learn. Moreover, doing this in a big lot doesn't help much since you need boundaries! That's why a proper DE (1st choice, then auto-x 2nd choice) with cones is the best environment to learn car control. After all, how do you know if you're truly "controling" the car if you're making these huge arcs in a lot where on the road that same arc (which you've learned how to do so well in that same lot) is right in the path of a large oak, or on-coming traffic!! And spins DO happen to the best of us. The goal is to feel it coming, know it's there, and keep it on this side of "the edge." Hope this helps
Edward
01-15-2005, 05:44 PM
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You get some snow & ice up there don't you?
If you don't, get little more north and and go to an empty parking lot, back roads or something when it's icy or snowy and just start throwing the car around. Let it also spin but try to lear to drive "8" track (on a parking lot) so that you'll slide thew whole course threw. Then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...
Greg's suggestion of reading Skip Barber's book is also good advice even though I disagree slightly with the oversteer correction explained there (when they explain to wait at some point of the slide, to me that makes absolutely no sense).
But driving on slippery surface where speeds are low (you have much more time to think and react) is the best practivce you can get. Then move to little more grippier surface (wet tarmac) and then in the end you'll know how to do it in dry tarmac.
If you don't, get little more north and and go to an empty parking lot, back roads or something when it's icy or snowy and just start throwing the car around. Let it also spin but try to lear to drive "8" track (on a parking lot) so that you'll slide thew whole course threw. Then repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...
Greg's suggestion of reading Skip Barber's book is also good advice even though I disagree slightly with the oversteer correction explained there (when they explain to wait at some point of the slide, to me that makes absolutely no sense).
But driving on slippery surface where speeds are low (you have much more time to think and react) is the best practivce you can get. Then move to little more grippier surface (wet tarmac) and then in the end you'll know how to do it in dry tarmac.
01-15-2005, 09:51 PM
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Another great Rennlist thread. DE's and rides with good drivers are both great tools and I still to this day can't pass an empty, snowy parking lot without wanting to mess it up and practice holding slides.
01-16-2005, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by seege
and I still to this day can't pass an empty, snowy parking lot without wanting to mess it up and practice holding slides.
Any news on the "alternative vehicle?"
01-16-2005, 08:18 PM
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Rob, I did a DE at Summit Point with the BMW-CCA... in addition to the DE track they have a donut-shaped skid pad that you can use... I spent about an hour on the skid pad that weekend, learned a lot. Summit Point is in West Virginia just west of Washington DC, about a 5.5 hour drive from NYC (I live in NYC as you do, the drive is somewhat long but there wasn't much traffic so I didn't mind). If you want to do the skid-pad, your DE probably has to be on the smaller track, called "Jefferson Circuit" (not the larger "Summit Point Raceway" or "Shenandoah" tracks). Here is some info on the skidpad: http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/ASL.HTM
Separately, I did the Porsche Driving Experience in Birmingham, AL... great time (though more expensive than a DE)... they have a brief skid-pad segment as part of that school, however you would be driving a 996 or 997, so that may not be as good as learning in your 993.
Separately, I did the Porsche Driving Experience in Birmingham, AL... great time (though more expensive than a DE)... they have a brief skid-pad segment as part of that school, however you would be driving a 996 or 997, so that may not be as good as learning in your 993.
01-16-2005, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JPL 993-C4S
If you want to do the skid-pad, your DE probably has to be on the smaller track, called "Jefferson Circuit" (not the larger "Summit Point Raceway" or "Shenandoah" tracks).
01-16-2005, 09:57 PM
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I'll provide a little different idea: try a few PC racing games. Specifically I would recommend Grand Prix Legends (if you can find it), Sports Car GT, or Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed. You'll need a steering wheel/pedal combo to really get the feel, and always use the in-car view.
I know it's not quite the same as being behind the wheel but I think these games went a long way in preparing me for the experience of driving a 911. Countersteer has to be second nature and if you tune the cars in these games to have a loose rear-end you'll constantly be catching the rear end, learning to counter-steer, keeping your foot in the gas, etc... Before you know it, you'll feel the car rotating earlier and earlier. You can sense all of this just with your eyes in the game. Then when you actually get behind the wheel you also feel the car with your hands, butt, etc... and it's even easier to tell how the car is balanced.
True, autocross or DE's are the ultimate but the PC simulations are a much cheaper and less dangerous way to get the basics.
I know it's not quite the same as being behind the wheel but I think these games went a long way in preparing me for the experience of driving a 911. Countersteer has to be second nature and if you tune the cars in these games to have a loose rear-end you'll constantly be catching the rear end, learning to counter-steer, keeping your foot in the gas, etc... Before you know it, you'll feel the car rotating earlier and earlier. You can sense all of this just with your eyes in the game. Then when you actually get behind the wheel you also feel the car with your hands, butt, etc... and it's even easier to tell how the car is balanced.
True, autocross or DE's are the ultimate but the PC simulations are a much cheaper and less dangerous way to get the basics.
01-17-2005, 12:57 AM
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Agreed on the pinball metaphor for Shenandoah (at Summit Point)... it's like they had a fire sale on concrete barriers the day they built that track...
The Jefferson circuit at Summit Point has decent run-off space, however... I think that with reasonable run-off and few turns to memorize (short track) it is a decent choice for a DE for a novice.
The Jefferson circuit at Summit Point has decent run-off space, however... I think that with reasonable run-off and few turns to memorize (short track) it is a decent choice for a DE for a novice.