Mike in Chi

Doc

Good post.

I was going to mention the same thing to CE when I say her Memorial Day.

That's a very unforgiving turn. CE, are you braking for it, breath and squeeze?

RedlineMan

Hey Gents;

I linked over from the DE forum again this morning. Having already read the one response there, I was prepared with waders in hand. I managed not to get swept away in the scheissenstromm. Glad too. This is a good thread and an important topic. Kudos to those who've kept shoveling against the tide to clear the path.
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Regarding the rookie driver crashing amongst the race cars. As much as everyone would like to think it is, performance driving is NOT something genetic. Any predisposed talent aside, everyone has to learn to do it. The early moments are filled with much mental exertion. The tasks of driving swiftly must be thought about intensely, and as such they are not done subconsciously as with a more experienced pilot.

When rookie drivers - who are devoting almost all of their attention to what they are physically trying to accomplish - are presented with a distraction, they are often taken by surprise, and suddenly have to apportion off concentration to the distraction. Since they are not skilled enough yet to have the rudiments of driving swiftly ingrained in the subconscious, guess what suffers? Their driving.

It would be nice to think that the instructor could take command and save the day, but that is only possible to the extent that she/he can be HEARD. It would also be nice to think that all such situations could be foreseen early enough to prepare the student. Shoulda coulda woulda is easy. Reality proves that best laid plans don't always work.

I can tell you one thing for certain. I would have utterly REAMED the Chief Steward of that event for letting race cars out in a novice group.
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Regarding the safety issue:

Personal responsibility is all well and good, and I embrace it whole-heartedly, but no one is prepared or can understand the eventualities of their first DE. Perhaps even for many events.

In that light, I am going to say that I feel that Cabs must have roll bars to do high speed events. For myself, although I HAVE driven a 993 Cab on track, I personally would not track one, period. and no I do not think the available bolt in roll bars mitigate that situation sufficiently. I know that will not sit well with some of the numerous Cab owners here, but with cars capable of such high speeds, and drivers that are likely NOT, the risk is simply more than I would be willing to tolerate.

Past that, safety equipment rules get a little tougher.

M758

I a little late to this one also coming over from the Race/DE Forum.

Firstly...
Along with few other I would not be racing today if I had to have roll bar to drive my stock 944 Turbo S on the race track. I can understand the helmet, but I was not and still am not prepared to install a roll bar in that car. To do so will keep many novices out DE. I wanted to drive my car closer to limit, really just find the limit, in safe enviroment. My alternative was the public roads therefore a closed course is MUCH SAFER even with "stock safety" equipment.

I do feel that Cab need roll bars at DE events. There is little roll over protection without roof. Coupes have much more. I know it is tough for cab owners, but that is just life. Boxster owners get break due to their roll hoops, but I think the "broomstick rule" should be enforced.

Now I do actually like the idea of requireing roll bars and 5/6pt harness, & race seats for R-tires. It does a few things.

1) R tires allow MUCH higher cornering speeds and it is the higher cornering speeds that will lead to problems if a mistake is made. Heck 944 with R-tires can corner faster than some 993's and therefore an off would be more dangerious even in the "slower" car. Thus more safety gear is benefitial.

2) Keeps novices OFF r-tires. As an instructor I hate to see new guys on R-tires. All it does is make my job much harder as their tires mask so many errors. I can typically feel them, but getting the student to feel it is 10 times harder than on street tires. Those tires also boost their ego's to THINK they are fast. If R-tires also required $$$ in safety gear I'd be there would be alot few folks on these things. There are plenty of good solid street tires that work fine for DE.

3) What is purpose of R-tires in DE anyway? Just so you can run faster than the next guy? This is all about Learning not racing so what does 2-3 seconds a lap mater anyway. So if you really want to "get serious" fine, but also get the saftey gear too.

An interesting point here...
A couple weeks ago I ran my Stock turbo S in a DE where I instructed. I ran the car in the instructor group with steet tires and stock 3 point belts and a helmet. No more. I am an experieced racer who just wanted to do some laps in my street car. I was not intending to race and only having stock belts and a street car meant I was going to be taking it easy. Naturally my taking it easy is faster than a novice pushing it hard, but much more undercontrol. I would argue that any person who has actually raced know the HUGE difference between DE in street car in Racing in a Race car and the by adjusts their speed accordingly. So I don't feel that safety gear should be tied to experience level of the driver. I still won't put a roll bar or 5/6pt harness in my 944 Turbo, but may on occasion take it to the track every now and again. I would not be happy with such a requirement. If I swapped to R-tires then I would gladly comply as I my intent begins to change. By my going to R-tires it does not say that I "want to race", but that it is more that just a "little track" time.

With respect to the GT3 and race driver's in novice group.

RACE DRIVERS IN RACE CARS should NEVER be allowed in any beginner or novice group. Novice drivers have enough going on and don't need to be distracted by race cars. Being a racer I know that what appears "safe and sane" in race car in race group practice is downright scary to a novice. It just should not happen. That said I still feel the driver is responsible for their car. I do not know the details of the incident, but the driver MUST accept the bulk of the responsibility. Sure the race cars provided a bad situation and then you can say the the "instructor" should have done this or that, but things can happen quickly such that instructors have little or now time to react. Sure the race cars may be a distraction, but so could another novice making a minor mistake. In the end the driver of the car must keep the car under control and they are the ONLY one who has direct control. Note that there ARE situtaions where on more cars have made mistake up ahead and following drivers are left with zero options. This can and does happen. Obviously in these cases it most likely NOT the fault of the 2nd or thrid driver in line.

Brian P

Hopefully that's just a rhetorical question. I know in my case, I wanted to get a second set of wheels so that if I blew a tire or ate up all of the tread, I had a way to get home and I also could continue on at the event. Given that I was buying new wheels and tires, I decided it made sense to get R-compounds.

One minor qualification to that... When I first bought the wheels, I already had regular street tires on them, so I actually toted an extra set of street tires to events for nearly a year.

Oh, and on race drivers driving in novice groups. I think that anybody driving at a group that is below their level should dial it back a few notches to not frighten anyone. I've driven in a green run group a few times when I was above that level and I made sure to dial it WAY back. I think it's easy to forget when we were novices and how we felt. Also, a novice driver might not realize that other cars are more capable and they think that they should be able to drive at similar speeds.

Bill Gregory

The HANS device comes with a CD with a video on how to install the helmet connectors, as well as a written sheet with instructions/pictures. Having just installed the HANS connectors on my helmet, I found it to be easy to do (definitely measure twice, cut once). Not sure I'd characterize the requirement as 'some professional installation", however, if there is any doubt, I believe Hubbard/Downing will install one set for free, although the owner has to pay for shipping the helmet.

forklift

Hmmm,

ALL of my instructors (4= 2 PCA, 2 Mazda) recommend I upgrade my Yoko 032R tires for either, Cups, Toyos, or Hoosiers. I just got Toyos put on, but kept the Yokos for a later date.

What I have learned lately is that it is difficult to make correct generalizations for DEs, just as it is in life.......different people, different situations. I read all of the opinions here with great interest and respect for those giving them, but have decided to listen primarily to my instructors as they are the only ones who have been in the car with me. I read posts here for information, just as I do the books on racing here at home. I take what I think is relevant to my situation and disregard the rest (oval racing etc.).

I think Rennlist is a fantastic place to be and I value what others write, I just try to keep everything in perspective. Just as there are differing opinions here, they exist at the track, I have quickly found out. One must quickly try to honestly evaluate where they are and how to apply it to what is being said. I will still ask questions here and weigh the answers heavily against my practical experience. If there is much of a difference, I will discuss it with one of my instructors. I keep in touch with a few frequently via email.

Just a few thoughts.....

Jim

M758

Well,
It really was NOT a retorical questions. I was serious. I can understand the desire for a second set of track tires however I also figure that a second set of track tires "just incase" can be street tires not R-tires.

R-tires are expensive and don't last very long. They can really only be used on the track although can made to work on the street. The way figure it if you want to go to r-tires are are already making a $700 to $1500 investment just for the track. At this point you might as well make an investment in safety be obviously you have money and desire to spend time out there. The guys that just want to run on a track will not be buying r-tires nor should be. If you have been going to the track for 10 years and want try r-tires great. If you don't want to put in the safety gear then stay on street tires. Heck everyone has street tires or can use them on the street. To me it is the simplest way to apply and added safety requirement. Simple run on "street tires" and you just need 3pt belts and helmet. Go to "R-tires such as... and you need 5/6pt harness, etc ...".

Also
As an instructor myself I have NEVER recommended R-tires to a student. I have given my opinion on certain ones, but never recommded a DE student switch to R's. In autocross yes, DE no.

forklift

I was just trying to point out that one can receive many different opinions on this board and it might be best to discuss those differences with their instructors (the only people who have been in the car with you). The R tire was just an example (I have others such as heel/toe, trail braking, LFBing etc.).

So really it was just a suggestion to research all you can and then speak to your instructor and how it relates to your driving. Also, I am signed off solo at my local DEs, not sure if that makes a difference.....

Brian P

Seems you have two issues here...
1) Do R-compounds belong in a DE environment?
2) If yes, then what other equipment should you have if you want to use R-compounds?

Let's tackle #2 first. I completely agree with you. I think the FIRST mods that anybody should do on their car should be safety related. For me, it was a rollbar extension, then 6-point harness, then upgraded brake pads. After that, it was a fire extinguisher, race seats, and then R-compound tires.

The only thing I would have changed was to switch to R-compounds much later in my DE adventures (about 15 DE days later)

On to question #1... I think R-compounds require more skill to use them to their full potential. As such, I think they are useful for advanced drivers. Like you, I'm not ecstatic about the idea of novice drivers using them. As for when people should switch, I'm a big fan of "you'll know when it's time to switch, and you won't have to ask the question." For me, I know that I switched about 6 months too soon.

M758

I do think R-compounds belong in DE enviroment. Certainly when one progresses to racing I rather have that guy comfortable on R-tire first.

I don't think R compounds belong on novice drivers. I do feel that alot fo folks go to R-compounds too early not learning to get what they can from streets. I do think you can learn alot on R-tires. It is just what you are learing is at much more advanced level. Learning line and basic car control skills are much better done on streets. Learning the fine points balance and car control can be done on streets. Yes if you want to learn a progress at some point you NEED to go R-tires. That however is after you have done a pretty good job at streets. That said however there are lots of guys that are not really interested in learing fine points. They just want to have fun on the track in safe manner. Thus learing the basics is fine. For them streets are the best. For the guy that is at limit of streets and wants a new challenege R-tires are the way to go, but that should also come with more safety gear as you are probably no longer the guy who just want to run a few hot laps in his street car.

I know of a number of guys here in Az that have dedicated track/street cars. These are streetable cars that are really see most of their time on the track. They don't want to race, but they do want to drive at higher cornering speed and take their DE time seriously. Most also have added safety gear in the from of harnesses, race seats, roll bars, etc and would quickly conform to any "standard" if it were required.

Matt Marks

I think that one of the concerns mentioned above is that with the proliferation of "race cars" or "race style" cars, whether they be new GT3's to fully tracked prepped 911's and 944's that somewant bought because they want to "go racing" even though they've never been on a track before.

The problem and I think it also applies to newbies or low-time drivers with R-tires, is an issue of ATTITUDE. In my time as an instructor with PCA/NASA/Audi, it's been these guys who are the ones to really push (or want to push) their limits far beyond what they know how to do. While students who don't have these sorts of mods are not necessarily going to be ideal students, it seems that attitude issues are less frequent and will approach the limits in a gentler fashion.

As a whole, I think that once students get serious avbout safety - either with cages or HANS, etc. - they're usually into their second year of track time when they truly have a solid understanding of the dangers that are present on the track.

I agree with many on the thread that setting the safety bar too high will discourage many people from DEs. Therefore, we as instructors need to especially vigilant in working with students as they progress to try to reduce the red-mist or "my johnson's bigger than yours" effect, while also educating about the proper safety equipment as a first upgrade.

I applaud the idea of requiring more safety equipment students advance to higher run groups and/or when they move to R-tires or do motor upgrades. Seems to me to be a reasonable compromise.

Mark in Baltimore

Hi, Brian,

As you know, I'm no instructor but I think one strong indicator of a driver's readiness to switch to R-compounds is if he or she is faster than identical cars that are shod with R-compounds.

Are you doing Summit with Potomac or the Watkins Glen DE with Metro in June?

Brian P

I'll be doing Zone 1 at Watkins Glen in June and Mid-Ohio with NNJR in a couple of weeks.

That's a good suggestion on when it's time to switch. Of course, I like it when I'm faster than better cars that are also on R-compounds. That always puts a BIG grin on my face.