Potential Targa Roof Problems...warning the pictures are not pretty !
06-30-2002, 02:45 AM
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Potential Targa Roof Problems...warning the pictures are not pretty !
I thought I would write the list about recent experiences with my Targa to discuss with other Targa owners of a possible problem area with our cars. My car is a 96 Targa with fairly high mileage..about 62K miles. Its quite clean and has been well taken care of.
After I bought my Targa I "encountered" a small water leak from the left hand front seal during heavy rains. The leak came from the inside joint between the front and side trim panels. This leak was not from any glass seals but appeared to be a body seal.
My PPI did not pick this up (another issue...its a long story). The previous owner had a problem with this area last year which Porsche fixed under the corrosion warranty. Apparently a small spot of rust appeared right at the rubber seal which was fixed by a Porsche shop in Toronto. They did some minor repairs and paint work.
I took the car down to my local Porsche dealer and they indicated that they thought the seal drains were damaged during the painting process from previous year. The drains are spigots that drain the water from the front rain trough to drains running down the windshield pillars. If you pull the seal up to pain you might cut the spigots. Given it was a Porsche approved repair, Porsche agreed to fix the seals so I dropped off the car to get the seal replaced.
Well, guess what they found? Surface rust on both upper corners of the windshield frame where the through bolts attach the roof to the windshield! ;-) What the hell is rust doing on a six year old car? Luckily it was all surface and no structural damage was apparent. Remember this car has no accidents (in the records anyways)! I also found the foam sound insulation drivers floor was carrying about 1/2 gallon of water...since if water leaks inside a car it has to go somewhere!
Here are shots of the left and right hand corners. The black gung is just the sealer...note the rust around the bolt holes. Its actually not that much but its still there.
Porsche and my local dealer really provided excellent support in this case. The dealer removed (yes, removed) the entire roof off the car, sent the car to one of the best body shops in Vancouver to fix the corrosion by cleaning and painting, and then put the roof back on the car with new seals. The car was tied up for two weeks. It also went back for another few days when some minor leaks appeared. It appears to be okay now. Porsche picked up the entire tab.
Here is a shot of the car without the roof for the curious!
Of course this raises questions, such as I could not see any traces of rust or corrosion until the roof was off. Is this particular to my car or something common to the Targa's? How many other ones are out there? Now that I am all "fixed-up" is this something that is waiting to happen again or ?
I really like the Targa design and the feel of the car...it way more open feeling than the coupe and the glass roof gives me extra headroom that just makes it a pleasure to drive. But I now have this feeling...
Anyone else had this experience?
After I bought my Targa I "encountered" a small water leak from the left hand front seal during heavy rains. The leak came from the inside joint between the front and side trim panels. This leak was not from any glass seals but appeared to be a body seal.
My PPI did not pick this up (another issue...its a long story). The previous owner had a problem with this area last year which Porsche fixed under the corrosion warranty. Apparently a small spot of rust appeared right at the rubber seal which was fixed by a Porsche shop in Toronto. They did some minor repairs and paint work.
I took the car down to my local Porsche dealer and they indicated that they thought the seal drains were damaged during the painting process from previous year. The drains are spigots that drain the water from the front rain trough to drains running down the windshield pillars. If you pull the seal up to pain you might cut the spigots. Given it was a Porsche approved repair, Porsche agreed to fix the seals so I dropped off the car to get the seal replaced.
Well, guess what they found? Surface rust on both upper corners of the windshield frame where the through bolts attach the roof to the windshield! ;-) What the hell is rust doing on a six year old car? Luckily it was all surface and no structural damage was apparent. Remember this car has no accidents (in the records anyways)! I also found the foam sound insulation drivers floor was carrying about 1/2 gallon of water...since if water leaks inside a car it has to go somewhere!
Here are shots of the left and right hand corners. The black gung is just the sealer...note the rust around the bolt holes. Its actually not that much but its still there.
Porsche and my local dealer really provided excellent support in this case. The dealer removed (yes, removed) the entire roof off the car, sent the car to one of the best body shops in Vancouver to fix the corrosion by cleaning and painting, and then put the roof back on the car with new seals. The car was tied up for two weeks. It also went back for another few days when some minor leaks appeared. It appears to be okay now. Porsche picked up the entire tab.
Here is a shot of the car without the roof for the curious!
Of course this raises questions, such as I could not see any traces of rust or corrosion until the roof was off. Is this particular to my car or something common to the Targa's? How many other ones are out there? Now that I am all "fixed-up" is this something that is waiting to happen again or ?
I really like the Targa design and the feel of the car...it way more open feeling than the coupe and the glass roof gives me extra headroom that just makes it a pleasure to drive. But I now have this feeling...
Anyone else had this experience?
06-30-2002, 10:41 AM
#2
Hi Mike,
Sorry to hear of your problems but it's nice to know the dealer took care of you. I haven't heard of this happening with other Targas but agree it is a concern.
I've had all the trim work off of my top to fix rattles so I'm sure that mine is clean.
Did the dealer indicate this is a "known" problem or simply lay the blame at the earlier repair?
Regards,
Curtis
Sorry to hear of your problems but it's nice to know the dealer took care of you. I haven't heard of this happening with other Targas but agree it is a concern.
I've had all the trim work off of my top to fix rattles so I'm sure that mine is clean.
Did the dealer indicate this is a "known" problem or simply lay the blame at the earlier repair?
Regards,
Curtis
06-30-2002, 12:25 PM
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Curtis,
I am not sure what you mean by "trim". Is this the inside panels which snap off, or the outside strips that run from the front to the back ?
Problem is that you cannot see this even if the trim is off...its deep into the front seals that run across the top of the windshield frame. If you disturb that seal to inspect then you are breaking the seal which might just start the problem. I am sure the PO knew it leaked but of course did not tell me. Unfortunately he is 3500 miles away so I guess he got away with it...and the PPI did not pick it up as well.
There was no talk about it being a "known" problem and no sign of any problems on the service bulletins. They blamed it on the crappy repair by the PO. I am not so sure given that the PO told me that the rust was caused by a defect that Porsche agreed to correct. Given Porsche has a 10 year rust warranty they have to fix it because of the corrosion.
Vancouver is a pretty rainy place so its a good testing ground for these roofs but they are of a complicated design, with lots of seals and water channels. My real worry now is will this happen again since it was never clear what caused the problem to begin with. Its possible that we have a "silent problem" happening that will not show up until the damage is done, and detecting it and/or fixing it is a major undertaking. And the number of Targas is just too low for it to be a concern.
Its a bit of a dilemma since I do love the top on this car...but I would hate to have to do the same thing again in 6 years and pay for it out of my pocket!
I am not sure what you mean by "trim". Is this the inside panels which snap off, or the outside strips that run from the front to the back ?
Problem is that you cannot see this even if the trim is off...its deep into the front seals that run across the top of the windshield frame. If you disturb that seal to inspect then you are breaking the seal which might just start the problem. I am sure the PO knew it leaked but of course did not tell me. Unfortunately he is 3500 miles away so I guess he got away with it...and the PPI did not pick it up as well.
There was no talk about it being a "known" problem and no sign of any problems on the service bulletins. They blamed it on the crappy repair by the PO. I am not so sure given that the PO told me that the rust was caused by a defect that Porsche agreed to correct. Given Porsche has a 10 year rust warranty they have to fix it because of the corrosion.
Vancouver is a pretty rainy place so its a good testing ground for these roofs but they are of a complicated design, with lots of seals and water channels. My real worry now is will this happen again since it was never clear what caused the problem to begin with. Its possible that we have a "silent problem" happening that will not show up until the damage is done, and detecting it and/or fixing it is a major undertaking. And the number of Targas is just too low for it to be a concern.
Its a bit of a dilemma since I do love the top on this car...but I would hate to have to do the same thing again in 6 years and pay for it out of my pocket!
06-30-2002, 12:58 PM
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Hmm....
As I read your post, Mike, I'm getting a sinking feeling in my stomach. I've recently "encountered" a leak on the driver's side of my '96. It only seems to happen if the car sits out in the rain, not when driving through heavy rain. The drip comes out from behind the rubber door weatherstrip, near the top left corner of the windshield/door frame. (Is that what you meant by "...inside joint between the front and side trim panels"?)
In my case, sitting in my car the drip lands on my left leg, about mid-way between my hip and knee, and drips onto the seat with no occupant present.
I haven't yet had time to try to tear everything apart and figure out how the water is getting in, but was assuming the driver's door window wasn't sealing well and/or the water was "wicking" around the weatherstrip.
From your post, it sounds like there isn't really a way to know if I'm experiencing what you recently went through, except to remove the entire top. Is that correct?
Thanks for the heads-up. As I learn more about my own car's leak I'll keep everyone informed.
-Chris
As I read your post, Mike, I'm getting a sinking feeling in my stomach. I've recently "encountered" a leak on the driver's side of my '96. It only seems to happen if the car sits out in the rain, not when driving through heavy rain. The drip comes out from behind the rubber door weatherstrip, near the top left corner of the windshield/door frame. (Is that what you meant by "...inside joint between the front and side trim panels"?)
In my case, sitting in my car the drip lands on my left leg, about mid-way between my hip and knee, and drips onto the seat with no occupant present.
I haven't yet had time to try to tear everything apart and figure out how the water is getting in, but was assuming the driver's door window wasn't sealing well and/or the water was "wicking" around the weatherstrip.
From your post, it sounds like there isn't really a way to know if I'm experiencing what you recently went through, except to remove the entire top. Is that correct?
Thanks for the heads-up. As I learn more about my own car's leak I'll keep everyone informed.
-Chris
06-30-2002, 01:48 PM
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Chris,
Unfortunately that sounds exactly where my leak developed...the water ends up dripping on your left leg about half way up, or onto the lower bolster if the seat is empty. It would also run down the pillar.
I had the same symptoms...would not leak or very little while driving but if I left the car sit in the rain...watch out!
The right hand side also leaked a little..but not much.
You should check the foam floor insulation on the drivers side floor. I found the water ran down the left winshield pillar, down the edge of the dash, under the left air vent, behind the carpeting and onto the floor. That big foam pad then sucked up the water...I must of taken 1/2 gallon of water out of the pad that had been soaking up over time. No rust or smell just water. Took a week to dry the puppy out.
So stick your hand under your carpets and pads to double check. My back pad (floor behind rear seats) was also wet.
Hopefully yours is weatherstripping..but its really hard to tell. They can replace the front seal without removing the whole roof. They take all the trim off, undo the bolts holding the front of the roof on, and pry the roof back to gain access to the seal. Its no pretty to see let me tell you! ;-( I am a DYI guy would would drop my engine but I am not sure if I would takle this problem..
I think the hour count for my repair in the order of 20 hours or so, and the seals another $300, plus paint/repair time for the body shop.
This is a total pain in the a** because you can't see it unless you rip it all apart.
Oh, one test you can try. There is a small water channel running along the front rubber seal where the small glass visor (the one that rises for ventilation) would drain. Take a small watering can and carefully pour water into this channel. You should get water running down the drains and coming out behind the front wheels. If any gets into the car you have a seal problem. Mine failed the test but it could be caused by the previous repair where they tore the spigots. I can take pictures if I am not clear.
Best of luck and keep posting...maybe its a common problem.
Unfortunately that sounds exactly where my leak developed...the water ends up dripping on your left leg about half way up, or onto the lower bolster if the seat is empty. It would also run down the pillar.
I had the same symptoms...would not leak or very little while driving but if I left the car sit in the rain...watch out!
The right hand side also leaked a little..but not much.
You should check the foam floor insulation on the drivers side floor. I found the water ran down the left winshield pillar, down the edge of the dash, under the left air vent, behind the carpeting and onto the floor. That big foam pad then sucked up the water...I must of taken 1/2 gallon of water out of the pad that had been soaking up over time. No rust or smell just water. Took a week to dry the puppy out.
So stick your hand under your carpets and pads to double check. My back pad (floor behind rear seats) was also wet.
Hopefully yours is weatherstripping..but its really hard to tell. They can replace the front seal without removing the whole roof. They take all the trim off, undo the bolts holding the front of the roof on, and pry the roof back to gain access to the seal. Its no pretty to see let me tell you! ;-( I am a DYI guy would would drop my engine but I am not sure if I would takle this problem..
I think the hour count for my repair in the order of 20 hours or so, and the seals another $300, plus paint/repair time for the body shop.
This is a total pain in the a** because you can't see it unless you rip it all apart.
Oh, one test you can try. There is a small water channel running along the front rubber seal where the small glass visor (the one that rises for ventilation) would drain. Take a small watering can and carefully pour water into this channel. You should get water running down the drains and coming out behind the front wheels. If any gets into the car you have a seal problem. Mine failed the test but it could be caused by the previous repair where they tore the spigots. I can take pictures if I am not clear.
Best of luck and keep posting...maybe its a common problem.
06-30-2002, 03:52 PM
#6
Hi Mike,
I was talking about all of the interior pieces: the piece that goes across the front (under the sun visors) and the pieces that run fore & aft along each side. There was no sign of rust or dampness and all of my interior is dry. I have poured water in the drains to see where it came out and confirmed that it was draining behind the wheels.
Curtis
I was talking about all of the interior pieces: the piece that goes across the front (under the sun visors) and the pieces that run fore & aft along each side. There was no sign of rust or dampness and all of my interior is dry. I have poured water in the drains to see where it came out and confirmed that it was draining behind the wheels.
Curtis
06-30-2002, 05:07 PM
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the additional info. I checked the padding under the carpet, and it doesn't feel wet, so either the leak is recent, or the seat just soaks it all up. (The seat has felt damp after heavy rain, although it seems to dry out after a day or two.)
Tried the test with the water channel, and it all (about 2 cups) drained out behind both front wheels, without a drop inside.
So, results inconclusive (for now).
-Chris
Thanks for the additional info. I checked the padding under the carpet, and it doesn't feel wet, so either the leak is recent, or the seat just soaks it all up. (The seat has felt damp after heavy rain, although it seems to dry out after a day or two.)
Tried the test with the water channel, and it all (about 2 cups) drained out behind both front wheels, without a drop inside.
So, results inconclusive (for now).
-Chris
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06-30-2002, 07:15 PM
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That's great its not leaking inside on that test...my car failed that test, again because of the drain spigots being sheared on the front seal. Sounds like your seals are fine (the drains at least).
The dealer used a rain sprinkler to test the car...for 1.5 hours. If it remains dry inside after all that then its okay.
Since the floor is dry it sounds like a minor and recent leak...so you most likely do not have the damage that I had. I know they can use some sealer on the seals to help stop the leaking...that should not be a big procedure.
How much to you drive your car in the rain? Mine is a daily driver for 9 months of the year so it gets rained on...just no snow nor salt. In Vancouver, if I did not drive it in the rain I might as well sell it... ;-)
The dealer used a rain sprinkler to test the car...for 1.5 hours. If it remains dry inside after all that then its okay.
Since the floor is dry it sounds like a minor and recent leak...so you most likely do not have the damage that I had. I know they can use some sealer on the seals to help stop the leaking...that should not be a big procedure.
How much to you drive your car in the rain? Mine is a daily driver for 9 months of the year so it gets rained on...just no snow nor salt. In Vancouver, if I did not drive it in the rain I might as well sell it... ;-)
07-01-2002, 08:48 PM
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Mike,
This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.
Curious to know whether it is possible to switch from a cab to targa by just replacing the roof? (my wife is nuts about the Targa)
993C4 Cab
This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.
Curious to know whether it is possible to switch from a cab to targa by just replacing the roof? (my wife is nuts about the Targa)
993C4 Cab
07-01-2002, 09:05 PM
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Hi Mike,
I'll have to do the test for a longer period of time (or let nature do it for me). I drive the car daily, and lately here in Florida we've been getting a *ton* of rain. I applied a bit of 3M weatherstrip adhesive to a part of the weatherstripping that seemed to not be as tightly sealed against the door frame last night. No leaks today, although it only rained lightly for ~45 minutes.
[quote]This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.<hr></blockquote>
I believe I read somewhere Porsche used the Cabriolet chassis as the starting point for the Targa. Not sure if a conversion would be possible.
As an aside (and also slightly OT), I saw a beautiful, silver 993 Targa on ebay this weekend. It was for sale by Gemballa, and they had a "buy it now" for around $47k, with a bunch of Gemballa-installed options already done.
-Chris
I'll have to do the test for a longer period of time (or let nature do it for me). I drive the car daily, and lately here in Florida we've been getting a *ton* of rain. I applied a bit of 3M weatherstrip adhesive to a part of the weatherstripping that seemed to not be as tightly sealed against the door frame last night. No leaks today, although it only rained lightly for ~45 minutes.
[quote]This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.<hr></blockquote>
I believe I read somewhere Porsche used the Cabriolet chassis as the starting point for the Targa. Not sure if a conversion would be possible.
As an aside (and also slightly OT), I saw a beautiful, silver 993 Targa on ebay this weekend. It was for sale by Gemballa, and they had a "buy it now" for around $47k, with a bunch of Gemballa-installed options already done.
-Chris
07-01-2002, 11:27 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by 993C4:
<strong>Mike,
This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.
Curious to know whether it is possible to switch from a cab to targa by just replacing the roof? (my wife is nuts about the Targa)
993C4 Cab</strong><hr></blockquote>
My understanding is the 96-98 Targas are indeed Cab's with a "hard roof". I have seen the roof off my car (I have shots still in the camera..have not downloaded them yet) and it looks like a hardware replacement for the soft-top cab. However, I am willing to bet it will be major $$$. The windshield frame is different, there is lots of wiring for the motors, lots of different internal trim pieces, the roof itself which I bet you can only buy in pieces or off a crashed car. I would venture $10k+ to convert but its just a guess. I have heard the glass alone is $5K+. Its not worth to convert a cab, its cheaper to just buy a targa!
I am still happy with the car since I paid about $35K US for it..the PO was motivated. So I am treating the first year of ownership as a shakedown for the car. If I can't get it all cleaned up then it might be on the market...
<strong>Mike,
This may be somewhat crazy idea and OT but looking at the Targa chassis (without the roof), it looks very similar to my cab's chassis.
Curious to know whether it is possible to switch from a cab to targa by just replacing the roof? (my wife is nuts about the Targa)
993C4 Cab</strong><hr></blockquote>
My understanding is the 96-98 Targas are indeed Cab's with a "hard roof". I have seen the roof off my car (I have shots still in the camera..have not downloaded them yet) and it looks like a hardware replacement for the soft-top cab. However, I am willing to bet it will be major $$$. The windshield frame is different, there is lots of wiring for the motors, lots of different internal trim pieces, the roof itself which I bet you can only buy in pieces or off a crashed car. I would venture $10k+ to convert but its just a guess. I have heard the glass alone is $5K+. Its not worth to convert a cab, its cheaper to just buy a targa!
I am still happy with the car since I paid about $35K US for it..the PO was motivated. So I am treating the first year of ownership as a shakedown for the car. If I can't get it all cleaned up then it might be on the market...
07-02-2002, 01:47 AM
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Mike
Tks for the info. I brought up this whacky idea after seeing your car without the roof, It looks strikingly similar to a cab body. And since there are so few targas in Singapore (my guess 5 max) it is very difficult to find one and even I do it'll probably cost too much.
I thought it might be a solution to replace the rag top to a targa when the rag top wears out or tears.
Email me your photos once you have them downloaded onto yr pc.
993C4 Cab
Tks for the info. I brought up this whacky idea after seeing your car without the roof, It looks strikingly similar to a cab body. And since there are so few targas in Singapore (my guess 5 max) it is very difficult to find one and even I do it'll probably cost too much.
I thought it might be a solution to replace the rag top to a targa when the rag top wears out or tears.
Email me your photos once you have them downloaded onto yr pc.
993C4 Cab
