2020 NEXT GENERATION 992 SPY PICS & RELEASE
01-30-2018, 12:43 PM
#961
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by blepski
" Automobile reports the car will use an upgraded six-cylinder engine which is codenamed the EA9A2. The engine family will reportedly benefit from improved combustion techniques as well as new technologies. The model is also expected to adopt a 48V mild hybrid system which increases the output by 20 hp (14 kW) and 52 lb-ft (70 Nm) of torque. "
This bit is confusing.... Does this mean all the 911's including the base Carrera engine will end up with this mild hybrid nonsense?
This bit is confusing.... Does this mean all the 911's including the base Carrera engine will end up with this mild hybrid nonsense?
The hybrid will be a specific model later on. They won't ALL be hybrids.
"Rumors about a 911 plug-in hybrid have been swirling for awhile and Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the publication the car will be launched as "soon as there is a market for it, which analysts say will be around 2023."
01-30-2018, 12:51 PM
#963
Rennlist Member
" Automobile reports the car will use an upgraded six-cylinder engine which is codenamed the EA9A2. The engine family will reportedly benefit from improved combustion techniques as well as new technologies. The model is also expected to adopt a 48V mild hybrid system which increases the output by 20 hp (14 kW) and 52 lb-ft (70 Nm) of torque. "
This bit is confusing.... Does this mean all the 911's including the base Carrera engine will end up with this mild hybrid nonsense?
This bit is confusing.... Does this mean all the 911's including the base Carrera engine will end up with this mild hybrid nonsense?
From the information supplied, my guess is that the hybrid would be situated inbetween the Base and the S:
Base: 400 hp
Hybrid: 420hp
S: 450hp.
Although with all that extra torque, I bet the hybrid would be faster than the S....albeit worse around turns with all that extra battery weight.
01-30-2018, 01:02 PM
#964
As someone barely on board with the FI 991.2 the future 992 hybrid variants are something I disagree with completely.
Apparently I am alone in this because the Panamera Hybrid has proven a huge success in Europe by those that clearly have no understanding and or care about long term viability and reliability. Of course the Panamera buyer is in a different market but my prediction is that if they push the performance aspect in the 911 hybrid variants then it will sell in significant numbers and completely signal the end of ICE.
Apparently I am alone in this because the Panamera Hybrid has proven a huge success in Europe by those that clearly have no understanding and or care about long term viability and reliability. Of course the Panamera buyer is in a different market but my prediction is that if they push the performance aspect in the 911 hybrid variants then it will sell in significant numbers and completely signal the end of ICE.
01-30-2018, 01:06 PM
#965
Originally Posted by RRDnA;14764493[b
]A car company has to produce vehicles that sell in sufficient commercial quantities in order to deliver acceptable returns to shareholders, they'll take growth where they find it and governments set the regulatory framework at the behest of various electorates.[/b] Thats just how it is and Porsche don't seem to be having a problem selling cars.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
In fact if you look at the history of the company, they have had to flex to survive, thats what they are doing now.
About 20 years ago Porsche nearly went out of business trying to sell air cooled cars - the market didn't want them in sufficient commercial quantities. To survive Porsche developed the Boxster, Cayenne and more powerful water cooled NA DFI sports cars. Today, they are largely, a manufacturer of SUVs.
Regulations called for better safety measures, cars became heavier and ultimately with smallish capacity engines it became necessary to produce turbocharged engines to square all circles e.g. deliver performance, power/torque and reduced emissions. Of course, Porsche could have developed very high compression 2L NA engines, that meet emissions targets but they didn't. Why?.........anyhow, it is what it is.
I doubt Porsche will have any difficulty selling turbocharged GT3s and at the end of the day those that don't like the products will move on. It is worth noting there are plenty of people, even on Rennlist, that like a range of different driving experiences and may own several vehicles to get the range of experiences they desire.
And no, regulators are not elected. That is the point. Nobody voted for this nonsense. Not with ballots. Nor with dollars.
And it is staggering even having to say this, but there was plenty of demand for air-cooled 911's. Porsche did not go water cooled to make more. Porsche went water cooled because at the specific outputs (that is, hp per liter) they were reaching air cooling was no longer suitable. They went water cooled for engineering reasons.
Porsche has always been, first and foremost, an engineering firm. For decades Porsche derived more income from engineering than from building cars. To give just one example, because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process. That is how fricken competent these guys are. And, believe it or not, they were building safety features into their cars decades before anyone made them regulatory requirements. Regulations have done NOTHING to improve the cars we have today. As awesome as today's 911's are, they are nothing compared to what they could be if they were simply left alone to build the cars their customers really want.
01-30-2018, 01:09 PM
#966
Race Director
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by chuck911
Actually, no, it is profit per car. Porsche has been the most profitable car company in the world. Porsche has never been anywhere close to the most cars produced in the world. Profit per car. You could look it up.
And no, regulators are not elected. That is the point. Nobody voted for this nonsense. Not with ballots. Nor with dollars.
And it is staggering even having to say this, but there was plenty of demand for air-cooled 911's. Porsche did not go water cooled to make more. Porsche went water cooled because at the specific outputs (that is, hp per liter) they were reaching air cooling was no longer suitable. They went water cooled for engineering reasons.
Porsche has always been, first and foremost, an engineering firm. For decades Porsche derived more income from engineering than from building cars. To give just one example, because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process. That is how fricken competent these guys are. And, believe it or not, they were building safety features into their cars decades before anyone made them regulatory requirements. Regulations have done NOTHING to improve the cars we have today. As awesome as today's 911's are, they are nothing compared to what they could be if they were simply left alone to build the cars their customers really want.
And no, regulators are not elected. That is the point. Nobody voted for this nonsense. Not with ballots. Nor with dollars.
And it is staggering even having to say this, but there was plenty of demand for air-cooled 911's. Porsche did not go water cooled to make more. Porsche went water cooled because at the specific outputs (that is, hp per liter) they were reaching air cooling was no longer suitable. They went water cooled for engineering reasons.
Porsche has always been, first and foremost, an engineering firm. For decades Porsche derived more income from engineering than from building cars. To give just one example, because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process. That is how fricken competent these guys are. And, believe it or not, they were building safety features into their cars decades before anyone made them regulatory requirements. Regulations have done NOTHING to improve the cars we have today. As awesome as today's 911's are, they are nothing compared to what they could be if they were simply left alone to build the cars their customers really want.
Chuck, all good and valid points but won't change the outcome of the 992 and purpose of the thread.
I like discussing these things too, but off topic here.
A better conversation to be had here?
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...o-410kw-2.html
01-30-2018, 01:26 PM
#967
These are all great arguments but one thing that may hurt 992 sales especially among current 991 owners including myself will be the interior. The Panameraization of the 991 interior was a radical change but ultimately proved to work out due to it being so functional.
This next iteration I fear might be one step too far. The haptic center console , those horrible center vents, glass cockpit and a cup holder that screams Ford Mustang I fear is pushing the car too far from it's usual tastefully advanced yet restrained philosophy.
As many are life long lovers / owners of many generations of 911 the fact that we are pessimistic towards each new model is a correct and natural behavior. Usually our fears are put to rest at the realization that Porsche in all their prowess pulled it off yet again and managed to keep us happy. Unfortunately though ... Lately it seems we have seen them along with many other enthusiasts brands falter at the hands of poor decision making and ever stringent regulations.
This next iteration I fear might be one step too far. The haptic center console , those horrible center vents, glass cockpit and a cup holder that screams Ford Mustang I fear is pushing the car too far from it's usual tastefully advanced yet restrained philosophy.
As many are life long lovers / owners of many generations of 911 the fact that we are pessimistic towards each new model is a correct and natural behavior. Usually our fears are put to rest at the realization that Porsche in all their prowess pulled it off yet again and managed to keep us happy. Unfortunately though ... Lately it seems we have seen them along with many other enthusiasts brands falter at the hands of poor decision making and ever stringent regulations.
01-30-2018, 01:27 PM
#968
Actually, no, it is profit per car. Porsche has been the most profitable car company in the world. Porsche has never been anywhere close to the most cars produced in the world. Profit per car. You could look it up.
And no, regulators are not elected. That is the point. Nobody voted for this nonsense. Not with ballots. Nor with dollars.
And it is staggering even having to say this, but there was plenty of demand for air-cooled 911's. Porsche did not go water cooled to make more. Porsche went water cooled because at the specific outputs (that is, hp per liter) they were reaching air cooling was no longer suitable. They went water cooled for engineering reasons.
Porsche has always been, first and foremost, an engineering firm. For decades Porsche derived more income from engineering than from building cars. To give just one example, because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process. That is how fricken competent these guys are. And, believe it or not, they were building safety features into their cars decades before anyone made them regulatory requirements. Regulations have done NOTHING to improve the cars we have today. As awesome as today's 911's are, they are nothing compared to what they could be if they were simply left alone to build the cars their customers really want.
And no, regulators are not elected. That is the point. Nobody voted for this nonsense. Not with ballots. Nor with dollars.
And it is staggering even having to say this, but there was plenty of demand for air-cooled 911's. Porsche did not go water cooled to make more. Porsche went water cooled because at the specific outputs (that is, hp per liter) they were reaching air cooling was no longer suitable. They went water cooled for engineering reasons.
Porsche has always been, first and foremost, an engineering firm. For decades Porsche derived more income from engineering than from building cars. To give just one example, because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process. That is how fricken competent these guys are. And, believe it or not, they were building safety features into their cars decades before anyone made them regulatory requirements. Regulations have done NOTHING to improve the cars we have today. As awesome as today's 911's are, they are nothing compared to what they could be if they were simply left alone to build the cars their customers really want.
With all the complaining I do on here I for one am a huge advocate for "being the change you want to see in the world" . My frustration towards the industry is really frustration with the consumer itself who keeps purchasing the nonsense rather than putting their foot down and demanding changes.
The 992 is in a very real sense Porsche giving us what the consumer demands :
For those who complained about the previous generations virtually non existent cup holders and demanding the the 911 have more connectivity / tech like their Mercedes SUV we have only them to blame for that ghastly 992 interior we are glimpsing.
For those that bought the PDK's in droves we have them to blame for the last 991.1 GT3 and the constant threat of loosing the manual.
For those who are buying these nonsense / over complicated little to be gained from hybrids including the 918 we have only them to blame for the 911 being considered for that technology.
Believe me if new cars stopped selling due to consumer demand shift you would be amazed at the things we could accomplish and the regulations would free up quicker than anything seen passing through Washington and whoever does what with the EU.
We as the consumer have massive power in numbers but we never seem to utilize it...
Last edited by limegreen; 01-30-2018 at 06:25 PM.
01-30-2018, 01:48 PM
#969
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When do I get a 700+ hp RWD manual 911?
And no electrics.
That is what I want.
400, 450, 550 ---> pass
48v system which will be heavy and annoying and will break ---> pass (why is this being used by everyone -- MB, Fiat/Chrysler on the new Ram etc. it is not a performance tool it is emissions and mpg)
Hybrid ---> pass
Also, what will the 992 weigh? The 991 is actually pretty light compared to competitors. Sure, everyone not on the GT board gets 14/18way seats and a sunroof which adds weight -- let alone AWD, but a PCCB manual GT3 at 3150lbs is not bad.
PS it is not about the consumer, it is about the regulators. This is endemic to the system from no more cheap power from coal to your 991 having a million safety and emissions systems
And no electrics.
That is what I want.
400, 450, 550 ---> pass
48v system which will be heavy and annoying and will break ---> pass (why is this being used by everyone -- MB, Fiat/Chrysler on the new Ram etc. it is not a performance tool it is emissions and mpg)
Hybrid ---> pass
Also, what will the 992 weigh? The 991 is actually pretty light compared to competitors. Sure, everyone not on the GT board gets 14/18way seats and a sunroof which adds weight -- let alone AWD, but a PCCB manual GT3 at 3150lbs is not bad.
PS it is not about the consumer, it is about the regulators. This is endemic to the system from no more cheap power from coal to your 991 having a million safety and emissions systems
01-30-2018, 01:51 PM
#970
Drifting
Anyone seen this speculative rendering of the 992?
01-30-2018, 02:19 PM
#971
because nobody knows this but it will floor you, Harley-Davidson Motorcycles only stopped dripping puddles and became America's most profitable motorcycle manufacturer after Porsche completely redesigned their engines and production process.
01-30-2018, 03:24 PM
#972
You are off a bit, Porsche helped them with the V Rod engine and thats it. Go see a new Harley with the pushrod and air cooled motors, they still leak oil very much so, and shake themselves to pieces leaving nuts and bolts scattered about wherever the park. Porsche had nothing to do with the production process.
A 2.6L screw blown I6 making 400 horse. Now that's an engine.
01-30-2018, 07:59 PM
#973
Guys,
So in the articles seen on this topic, I can't really see where the GTS will play.
Will we have 991.2 GTS in 2019?
Are there new 991.2 GTS allocation this 2018 calendar year?
When will the 992 be offered in GTS?
So in the articles seen on this topic, I can't really see where the GTS will play.
Will we have 991.2 GTS in 2019?
Are there new 991.2 GTS allocation this 2018 calendar year?
When will the 992 be offered in GTS?
01-30-2018, 09:36 PM
#974
I believe it will. I can already hear the car reviewers commending Porsche on nearly eliminating all signs of turbo lag and improving the exhaust note over the 991.2.
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
Myself and many other 991.1 owners skipped the 991.2. While others obviously don’t agree, many of us saw the 991.2 as Porsche’s way to test the Carrera market earlier than necessary with the FI platform in order to gain valuable feedback and also get the whole FI vs NA debate out of the way.
I’m looking forward to the 992 and so are many other 991.1 owners. Our cars are getting older and by the time the 992 roles out, it will be time for an upgrade. I predict the 992 will sell just fine.
As for the FI GT3, after seeing what the GT2 is capable of, I’m not overly concerned.
Agreed, I'm not concerned at all.
01-30-2018, 10:01 PM
#975
All great and valid points....
With all the complaining I do on here I for one am a huge advocate for "being the change you want to see in the world" . My frustration towards the industry is really frustration with the consumer itself who keeps purchasing the nonsense rather than putting their foot down and demanding changes.
The 992 is in a very real sense Porsche giving us what the consumer demands :
For those who complained about the previous generations virtually non existent cup holders and demanding the the 911 have more connectivity / tech like their Mercedes SUV we have only them to blame for that ghastly 992 interior we are glimpsing.
For those that bought the PDK's in droves we have them to blame for the last 991.1 GT3 and the constant threat of loosing the manual.
For those who are buying these nonsense / over complicated little to be gained from hybrids including the 918 we have only them to blame for the 911 being considered for that technology.
Believe me if new cars stopped selling due to consumer demand shift you would be amazed at the things we could accomplish and the regulations would free up quicker than anything seen passing through Washington and whoever does what with the EU.
We as the consumer have massive power in numbers but we never seem to utilize it...
With all the complaining I do on here I for one am a huge advocate for "being the change you want to see in the world" . My frustration towards the industry is really frustration with the consumer itself who keeps purchasing the nonsense rather than putting their foot down and demanding changes.
The 992 is in a very real sense Porsche giving us what the consumer demands :
For those who complained about the previous generations virtually non existent cup holders and demanding the the 911 have more connectivity / tech like their Mercedes SUV we have only them to blame for that ghastly 992 interior we are glimpsing.
For those that bought the PDK's in droves we have them to blame for the last 991.1 GT3 and the constant threat of loosing the manual.
For those who are buying these nonsense / over complicated little to be gained from hybrids including the 918 we have only them to blame for the 911 being considered for that technology.
Believe me if new cars stopped selling due to consumer demand shift you would be amazed at the things we could accomplish and the regulations would free up quicker than anything seen passing through Washington and whoever does what with the EU.
We as the consumer have massive power in numbers but we never seem to utilize it...
Those Joe and Jane Cupholders who seem to have the most reign when it comes to how cars are designed today, have such because they incessantly complain, and they aren’t picky about what they buy (is it a mindless appliance that does everything pretty well? Great! They’re in), and there are a lot of them. To counter that, the enthusiast base needs to make themselves heard (fruitless as it may be, going forward in this climate), else enthusiasts get their cars designed for Joe and Jane Cupholder.