New 911 Hybrid vs Old 911: Drag Race
06-25-2024, 10:54 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
They have doubts .....https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca...eline-44504881
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
I don't think many people are confident in the charging infrastructure or long term proposition of using an EV as your primary vehicle. There is also the challenge of home charging when you don't have a garage or live in an apartment complex. Until then, EVs tend to be a secondary vehicle and that is a luxury many people do not have.
I think some people also tend to think of these cars as disposable appliances that are simply used up and then trashed. We've all had batteries that wear out over time and become useless. Overcoming that stigma will take a long time, IMO. Fair or not, if the market gets flooded with anonymous Chinese EVs with knockoff designs then that disposable feeling will only get worse.
MHEV is good technology. It seems to work well and has a lot of upside. I suspect the new car will have a sharper throttle and very broad powerband - something that a drag race doesn't really tell you.
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yrralis1 (06-25-2024)
06-25-2024, 11:02 AM
#32
Does 0-60 really matter anymore? (I mean besides to C8 owners and kids with tuned up nissans). Electric cars have shown that we can do 0-60 as fast as safely possible in a fancy golf cart.. At what point does this stop becoming a thing, and we start focusing on the elements that actually differentiate sports cars, like top speed, handling, breaking, track times, etc..
06-25-2024, 11:42 AM
#33
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Does 0-60 really matter anymore? (I mean besides to C8 owners and kids with tuned up nissans). Electric cars have shown that we can do 0-60 as fast as safely possible in a fancy golf cart.. At what point does this stop becoming a thing, and we start focusing on the elements that actually differentiate sports cars, like top speed, handling, breaking, track times, etc..
Until it does.
Can you imagine the outcry if the 992.2 911 was slower than the same trim of the 992.1 911 in 0-60 times?
We have pages and pages of people losing their diapers over the fact that the battery in T-hybrid system might be depleted after one hero lap on the Ring.
If the 992.2 911 did the 0-60 in something like 4 seconds, the Internet might break (yes, break, not brake).
06-25-2024, 11:58 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
As long as an EV cannot be your primary, sole vehicle - this is going to be difficult.
I don't think many people are confident in the charging infrastructure or long term proposition of using an EV as your primary vehicle. There is also the challenge of home charging when you don't have a garage or live in an apartment complex. Until then, EVs tend to be a secondary vehicle and that is a luxury many people do not have.
I think some people also tend to think of these cars as disposable appliances that are simply used up and then trashed. We've all had batteries that wear out over time and become useless. Overcoming that stigma will take a long time, IMO. Fair or not, if the market gets flooded with anonymous Chinese EVs with knockoff designs then that disposable feeling will only get worse.
MHEV is good technology. It seems to work well and has a lot of upside. I suspect the new car will have a sharper throttle and very broad powerband - something that a drag race doesn't really tell you.
I don't think many people are confident in the charging infrastructure or long term proposition of using an EV as your primary vehicle. There is also the challenge of home charging when you don't have a garage or live in an apartment complex. Until then, EVs tend to be a secondary vehicle and that is a luxury many people do not have.
I think some people also tend to think of these cars as disposable appliances that are simply used up and then trashed. We've all had batteries that wear out over time and become useless. Overcoming that stigma will take a long time, IMO. Fair or not, if the market gets flooded with anonymous Chinese EVs with knockoff designs then that disposable feeling will only get worse.
MHEV is good technology. It seems to work well and has a lot of upside. I suspect the new car will have a sharper throttle and very broad powerband - something that a drag race doesn't really tell you.
06-25-2024, 09:13 PM
#35
as a refresher on why cars need to continually improve 0-60 times (even though its not the most important metric) please take a gander right now at any BMW forum.
New M5 is bigger, heavier, more expensive, more complicated and SLOWER than the last generation.
I can't recall any other performance oriented car ever coming out slower than the prior gen. I feel like we've finally hit the turning point where fuel economy actually starts taking performance away from us. And bmw forums are rightfully losing their minds over it.
So yeah, I'm glad the hybrid 911 is quicker because whats happening at bmw is depressing me. (as a former owner and lover of many bmws)
New M5 is bigger, heavier, more expensive, more complicated and SLOWER than the last generation.
I can't recall any other performance oriented car ever coming out slower than the prior gen. I feel like we've finally hit the turning point where fuel economy actually starts taking performance away from us. And bmw forums are rightfully losing their minds over it.
So yeah, I'm glad the hybrid 911 is quicker because whats happening at bmw is depressing me. (as a former owner and lover of many bmws)
06-25-2024, 09:26 PM
#36
Does 0-60 really matter anymore? (I mean besides to C8 owners and kids with tuned up nissans). Electric cars have shown that we can do 0-60 as fast as safely possible in a fancy golf cart.. At what point does this stop becoming a thing, and we start focusing on the elements that actually differentiate sports cars, like top speed, handling, breaking, track times, etc..
Top speed has ZERO relevance except at cars and coffee and kidds card games...
06-25-2024, 09:33 PM
#37
06-26-2024, 12:15 AM
#39
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA and Melbourne, Australia
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They have doubts .....https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca...eline-44504881
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
The following 2 users liked this post by aggie57:
CodyBigdog (06-26-2024),
Haros (06-26-2024)
06-26-2024, 12:36 AM
#40
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
They have doubts .....https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ca...eline-44504881
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
Snippets from article --
Quote -
Porsche Chief Financial Officer Lutz Meschke was quoted by Automotive News on Thursday casting some doubts.
"There's a lot of discussions right now around the end of the combustion engine," Meschke said in Singapore. "I think it could be delayed."
Quote --
From Automotive News Europe:
A slowdown in EV orders has thrown into question whether the European Union is on track for the phaseout, which represents one of the most ambitious efforts to curb carbon emissions.The region's consumers have been put off by a lack of reliable charging networks, persistently high prices and the rollback of EV incentives. The U.K. has already postponed its planned ban of new gasoline and diesel models by five years to 2035.While manufacturers of premium and luxury EVs can work without subsidies, cutting them from the volume segment is wrong, said Meschke, who spoke on the sidelines of the unveiling of Porsche's long-delayed electric Macan SUV.
Quote --
The largest piece of the puzzle is likely public opinion, however. Despite years of the industry trying to assure drivers that EV costs would be even to combustion vehicles by 2025, we’re not even close to that becoming a reality. Electric automobiles tend to be purchased by wealthier individuals as a secondary vehicle and (with notable exceptions) trade at much higher prices. They also depreciate more quickly, making them less attractive to the kind of people that care about resale values.
I think some dont realize the cultural philosophy taking place in Europe . For instance the Olympics are being held in Paris , France . The Mayor of Paris wants to have a "green Olympics " with no AC for athletes . The USA told then well basically Scr^w you . We aren't sweating because you want to be green . They are bringing their own portable AC units
.https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...ris-rcna158415
Don't doubt for a minute that some of that Rivian know-how isn't earmarked for Porsche.
And, yes, that includes the 911.
06-26-2024, 02:21 AM
#41
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I thought VW already had a good EV? And Porsche has the Taycan? VW is saying their EV's are really bad?
You will get a Rivian-Porsche 911 for $250,000? What could go wrong here?
06-26-2024, 07:30 AM
#42
as a refresher on why cars need to continually improve 0-60 times (even though its not the most important metric) please take a gander right now at any BMW forum.
New M5 is bigger, heavier, more expensive, more complicated and SLOWER than the last generation.
I can't recall any other performance oriented car ever coming out slower than the prior gen. I feel like we've finally hit the turning point where fuel economy actually starts taking performance away from us. And bmw forums are rightfully losing their minds over it.
So yeah, I'm glad the hybrid 911 is quicker because whats happening at bmw is depressing me. (as a former owner and lover of many bmws)
New M5 is bigger, heavier, more expensive, more complicated and SLOWER than the last generation.
I can't recall any other performance oriented car ever coming out slower than the prior gen. I feel like we've finally hit the turning point where fuel economy actually starts taking performance away from us. And bmw forums are rightfully losing their minds over it.
So yeah, I'm glad the hybrid 911 is quicker because whats happening at bmw is depressing me. (as a former owner and lover of many bmws)
Overall Porsche managed to keep the 911 basically in the same weight (ok, the real gain with the same options is about 100 lbs overall) range as the outgoing pure ICE variant while keeping the car compliant with current emission standards and marginally improve performance: this is not a given and not a negligible result.
We may not like how the 911 has evolved in the last 20 years but Porsche has done a decent job overall and the market has proven them right; sure a modern 911 that does not have to comply with current emissions and safety standards or that moves to a complete different pricepoint could be substantially lighter and be similar to a Singer, but it would be more of a supercar that an everyday sportscar.
Last edited by cebe; 06-26-2024 at 07:37 AM.
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CZS (06-26-2024)
06-26-2024, 08:22 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news...us-green-hopes
Quote --“Greenblaming” of EU Green Deal policies appeals to many votersMeanwhile, the RN intends to use its newfound political clout to fight against what it calls "punitive ecology" in the form of the European Green Deal. At the EU level, it wants to reverse the decision to ban the sale of new internal combustion vehicles by 2035 – an aim that it shares with the German CDU/CSU. It also wants to abandon the European Commission's "Farm to Fork" strategy, which the French far-right accuses of “deliberately organising the drastic reduction” of France’s agricultural output. Ingratiating itself with the country’s influential farming lobby, the RN argued in a position paper that EU environmental policy embedded in the strategy is “out of touch with reality,” because “the imperative of protecting nature” is taking over “the need to feed the population.”
Known as “greenblaming,” the strategy of the French far-right is to make transition policies – and
Last edited by yrralis1; 06-26-2024 at 08:31 AM.
06-26-2024, 08:42 AM
#44
In my opinion the biggest blunder about the new M5 is that it weights a massive 5,400 lbs and substantially more (hundreds of lbs!) than the outgoing model: this puts into perspective the direction taken and result achieved by Porsche with the 992.2 GTS.
Overall Porsche managed to keep the 911 basically in the same weight (ok, the real gain with the same options is about 100 lbs overall) range as the outgoing pure ICE variant while keeping the car compliant with current emission standards and marginally improve performance: this is not a given and not a negligible result.
We may not like how the 911 has evolved in the last 20 years but Porsche has done a decent job overall and the market has proven them right; sure a modern 911 that does not have to comply with current emissions and safety standards or that moves to a complete different pricepoint could be substantially lighter and be similar to a Singer, but it would be more of a supercar that an everyday sportscar.
Overall Porsche managed to keep the 911 basically in the same weight (ok, the real gain with the same options is about 100 lbs overall) range as the outgoing pure ICE variant while keeping the car compliant with current emission standards and marginally improve performance: this is not a given and not a negligible result.
We may not like how the 911 has evolved in the last 20 years but Porsche has done a decent job overall and the market has proven them right; sure a modern 911 that does not have to comply with current emissions and safety standards or that moves to a complete different pricepoint could be substantially lighter and be similar to a Singer, but it would be more of a supercar that an everyday sportscar.
06-26-2024, 11:25 AM
#45
LOL, be absolutely certain that many do.
I agree with others here that the 0-60 metric is not the best go to metric. Trap MPH will give a far better idea of how strong or how much fun a vehicle will be in actual use as it negates the launch and traction variable to a greater extent.
A car that traps 125 is profoundly healthier than another that records 115MPH and so on. This fact easily escapes the guy who knows only what he sees in his car magazines.
I agree with others here that the 0-60 metric is not the best go to metric. Trap MPH will give a far better idea of how strong or how much fun a vehicle will be in actual use as it negates the launch and traction variable to a greater extent.
A car that traps 125 is profoundly healthier than another that records 115MPH and so on. This fact easily escapes the guy who knows only what he sees in his car magazines.
Last edited by Hunky; 06-26-2024 at 11:35 AM.
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CZS (06-26-2024)