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Hi all - below is an email I sent tonight after having issues with the MEngineering tune on my '24 T with GTS turbos. Car was experiencing misfires at 5800 and 7k rpm and occasionally throwing a misfire code. After 4 revisions accompanied with assurances of improvement, the problems actually getting worse and MEng suggesting that I may need to replace fuel injectors on a 1100 mile car - I decided to call Softronic. Had a lengthy discussion and after uninstalling the MEngineering tune resulting the fixing of the misfire problem - I decided to purchase the Softronic tune. I now have zero problems and the car is definitely faster. BTW, I've owned a lot of fast cars(tuned 991 Turbo S, Tacyan Turbo S, C8Z06 etc.) and I can safely say my T is silly fast with the Softronic tune, GTS turbos, Europipe 100 cell cats and Akra exhaust.
I know there are a lot of satisfied customers with the MEngineering tune so ymmv but are you really getting everything to be had from your car? My experience says no...
From: BarryC
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2024 7:29 PM
To: M-Engineering <calibration@m-engineering.us>; info@flat6motorsports.com <info@flat6motorsports.com>; Softronic <info@softronicsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: [M-Engineering] Re: Re: [M-Engineering] Re: 2024 992 Carrera T, Barry Church
To all,
I loaded the Softronic tune tonight and drove the requisite 30 miles before doing a pull. Result is ZERO issues and to top it off, the car is making more power. I'm on the same tank of gas, roughly the same ambient temperature and no changes to the car. Did at least 10 pulls to redline in sport plus and the car runs flawlessly. So there's no doubt, my problems were tune related.
Scott (Softronic) - thank you for taking the time to work with me on the problems I experienced with the MEngineering tune. The time you spent talking to me directly (instead of emails) was invaluable and clearly, you are quite knowledgeable with regard to tuning.
Jon(Flat6) - I suggest you reconsider pushing the MEngineering tune especially when combined with the GTS turbo upgrade. I've had a significantly better buying experience with Softronic. I'm really not happy that my time was wasted with MEngineering guessing about the problem and resulting in me having to spend $4k on an $1800 tune. I would have been even more pissed if I had changed injectors and still had the problem.
MEngineering - you guys need to get your act together.
Thank you all for the feedback and responses here. Getting a publicly posted thread like this with a competitor’s email cc’d to our company is hard to see. At the end of the day we want all of our partners and clients happy with the results and products they received. I’m glad to hear the OP’s case is resolved and he is happy with his calibration.
To address the specific issues we will start here.
There is an active TSB from Porsche, specifically for injectors on the 992 platform. The 992 piezo style injectors are prone to failure and have occurred on stock cars, cars with zero miles, tuned cars, low mile cars, you name it, we have seen it all. The majority of cars do not have this problem, but there have been enough cases of this which is why there is literally a Porsche service bulletin for it. The issue with injectors is exacerbated when tuning is applied where more commanded fuel and load requests are given. The injector open time is increased to meet the demand of fuel needed to safely run the car. The 992 platform also does not always throw faults for this, although sometimes they do. We specifically mention this issue in our map notes as seen here:
“NOTE ABOUT INJECTORS: Although very uncommon, the 992 platform (Carrera and Turbo) have a factory TSB for injector failures. The failure symptoms show themselves as an injector fault normally followed with misfiring under load. These symptoms can become exacerbated with tuning. If your car has any injector problems, it’s important to get this repaired. This normally requires injector replacement and reprogramming. “
From the factory, Porsche’s wide open throttle fueling strategy targets a very lean lambda target of 1. This is to meet emissions criteria. To increase power, added fuel is needed to match the new increased mass of air entering the engine. What is done on the calibration side is an increase of injector open time. With finicky or issue injectors, this can cause issues with misfiring and poor driving and performance. This is why in this person’s case, the Stage 0 mapping we sent them worked fine. It required less injector open time and commanded a much lower load.
So why is it working on a competitor’s flash you might ask? This is simple. Stage 0 files can be reworked to increase boost levels to command more power, but keep the lean running condition of a lambda of 1 or close to 1 at WOT. In the long run, this is harmful to an engine if not managed properly. It also won’t be a very powerful or fast calibration either. We are very transparent about our calibrations and offer our own in-house flashing protocol and the ability to datalog with M-Tuner. With some of these other files out there, you are not given that ability. You cannot see what the engine is doing. It is a smoke and mirrors case of running a factory file with just some added load targets. How do you know it is running a safe AFR? How do you know the knock thresholds are not removed? How do you know what requested load and load actual are doing? How do you know how much manifold pressure you are running? How do you know how much ignition timing the car is running? You don’t.
Attached here is a photo of a lambda target table using our in-house software, M-Composer. The top is stock from Porsche, with commanded targets of lambda of 1, compared to a tune file (bottom) with richer targets to match for a well running combustion cycle.
Overtime, the injector issue will become worse and show its face even in the stock form if your car is showing these symptoms. This is not something to overlook. What may start as a simple misfire that can be resolved with a hardparts replacement can eventually turn into damaged engine components. A 992 block sure sounds like a pricey replacement.
This owner’s particular car is ROM ID 992906021CE, a very common box code with vetted calibrations on several dozen cars of this exact ID. If this were a tuning issue on our end, our other customers with this same ROM ID would be making this same complaint, as the base file we made for these is going to be the same byte for byte.
I’ve attached a Porsche TSB for the injector fault. Normally, Porsche replaces the injectors under warranty along with the harness for it. The injectors should always be replaced as a full set of 6 as they are flow tested and manufactured in batches. They also have to be specifically programmed to the car. Here is also an example of another thread on RL of owners seeing this on stock cars (this issue is present on Carrera and Turbo btw): https://rennlist.com/forums/992-turb...workshopn.html
We proudly stand by our products and helping customers out in every situation we can. If your car has a mechanical problem we can see through empirical data we will always let you know. We will not be responding to this thread any further.
Nope. Flat6 did offer a $400 credit but would not accept the return of the MTuner and issue a full refund. I took the $400 as it was better than nothing.
M-Engineering is a proven company with hundreds of tunes out there, if not thousands. I know you are upset and are looking to get some polite revenge but this is a bit unfair. I have had issues with Akra, HRE, AWE, H&R spacers breaking in half etc. This stuff happens. If Softronic works best for your for your application, so be it, but no need to try to bad mouth the other alternative which many many customers are very happy with.
Well, now that first blood has been drawn and we've heard one side of the story...I hope Jon at Flat6 and M-Engineering chime in to provide their side.
"There are always two sides to every story"
M-Engineering is a proven company with hundreds of tunes out there, if not thousands. I know you are upset and are looking to get some polite revenge but this is a bit unfair. I have had issues with Akra, HRE, AWE, H&R spacers breaking in half etc. This stuff happens. If Softronic works best for your for your application, so be it, but no need to try to bad mouth the other alternative which many many customers are very happy with.
Not bad mouthing - just stating the facts colored by frustration with wasting time and money. It's definitely your prerogative to be dismissive of my post but others may benefit from my experience.
Originally Posted by silverscooby27
I appreciate hearing about all experiences good and bad.
Yep.
Originally Posted by sk911
Well, now that first blood has been drawn and we've heard one side of the story...I hope Jon at Flat6 and M-Engineering chime in to provide their side.
"There are always two sides to every story"
I can post more emails between me, Flat6 and MEng if you'd like more color. This was not a one and done discussion with them.
Not bad mouthing - just stating the facts colored by frustration with wasting time and money. It's definitely your prerogative to be dismissive of my post but others may benefit from my experience.
Yep.
I can post more emails between me, Flat6 and MEng if you'd like more color. This was not a one and done discussion with them.
With what intend did you post this though? Your ego got hurt and you want to bad mouth a company. You can share your experiences, which is fair, and this was obviously a negative one and we can all learn from it.
But I like to encourage people to try to be kind. I don’t think there was an ill intent from their side. Share your frustrations but I see an intention to hurt their reputation which I don’t see the good in trying to do that.
With what intend did you post this though? Your ego got hurt and you want to bad mouth a company. You can share your experiences, which is fair, and this was obviously a negative one and we can all learn from it.
But I like to encourage people to try to be kind. I don’t think there was an ill intent from their side. Share your frustrations but I see an intention to hurt their reputation which I don’t see the good in trying to do that.
Sorry but my ego is not hurt. My wallet and time is. I'm not bad mouthing - just stating facts. If the facts hurts their reputation and they actually are a good company, they'll learn from it and improve for the next customer.
Sorry to hear that Mengineering didn’t work out for you.. I’ve been looking into what tune to get and am still on the fence. Eventually plan on the gts or other turbo upgrade too.
I will say that it would be awesome if they offered you a full refund. It would be the most direct way to make you whole. In business you can win em all. Take the L and move on is sometimes the most profitable play.
Sorry but my ego is not hurt. My wallet and time is. I'm not bad mouthing - just stating facts. If the facts hurts their reputation and they actually are a good company, they'll learn from it and improve for the next customer.
Suggesting to one of their closest partners to stop pushing their products and then coming here to one of the largest P-boards and posting it here is solely done with will intentions.
Again, I hope this gets sorted for you, but this could have been done behind curtains.
Suggesting to one of their closest partners to stop pushing their products and then coming here to one of the largest P-boards and posting it here is solely done with will intentions.
Again, I hope this gets sorted for you, but this could have been done behind curtains.
Thanks. The issue is sorted at this point. I don't expect additional $ from Flat6/MEng and the car runs great on the first try by another one of their vendors so it's up to them what they do next.
I appreciate this post and I think it's great to hear all feedback, good and bad, on the options available out there. Fair post and definitely educational for the community, especially as someone looking for a tune in the near future for my own 992 C2S. This isn't the first issue I've heard of (and I also realize there are hundreds of satisfied customers as well), but I think it's absolutely fair to hear all the feedback, instead of the problems being swept under the rug. I think you gave them a fair chance at resolving the issues, and it's too bad that it couldn't work out for you in the end. Nice to hear that Softronic worked out for you.
I think a full refund in this case would be more than fair for all the wasted time and effort. I, too, would be pretty frustrated and upset with all the time put in to a product that never worked out in the end.
I'm curious to hear how @M Engineering responds to the post, and more importantly, improves their own tune based on the experience and data.
I don’t find the post to be out of line w/ maybe the exception of suggesting dropping a supplier due to an issue. I would feel the same if I bought a product and didn’t work. As has been stated, there are two sides to the story but if in fact that I, as the buyer had done all I was instructed to do regarding any product and it didn’t work, a full refund would be expected. However, in the car world, I have found that is not always be the case. Have always heard good things about M-E so surprised that a full refund wasn’t offered IF all the facts as stated are as presented.
I'm planning to tune my C2 much like the OP, however, I will wait till I have 5000-6000 miles before I make a move. If something bad is going to occur early on, rather it did so prior to tuning and hardware upgrades. (I realize stuff happens at any point in car ownership)