Ikone

100%. I just think whenever someone says a certain model costs more than another, they should really point out if there are additional standard items you'll get. Like forged wheels, larger brakes, etc, etc. It's only fair.

Drew46

He is a troll poser and has been caught out (and called out) more times than you can imagine. 12 year old behind a keyboard somewhere who actually believed that (among other ridiculous things) that folks use Vaseline to help them get in and out of the car without damaging the leather.

VarTheVar

I certainly don't hate the GTS, it's just my least favorite variant of the 911, dating back to way before the 992. The standard features are simply things I don't like. As far as the helper springs, they are there to help the suspension droop when the main spring maxes out. It's a great feature. How noticeable it is by GTS owners chiming in here? I'd say probably not very if at all. I'm not talking down on the GTS suspension setup. I'm just saying the T and the S are identical, the T having the potential advantage of lighter weight depending on the spec. And the GTS is very similar but not the same. Damper tuning on all 911s is just mediocre anyway. So the guy who said the T is not very good in general is just wrong, and the other guy drawing parallels from the T to a base is not accurate. T and S are the same if equipped with Sport PASM.

Additional point: comparing a car with and without RAS for cornering speed and with and without PDCC for artificial ride flatness isn't really helpful. There are too many variants of each model. And I'm willing to guess the GTS crowd pretty much all option RAS because that's the audience for it. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison it would be a pain in the butt. Even the journalists all got press cars optioned with RAS.

AlfaM5

The guy saying the T is not very good was me and I was talking about the 991 and its engine. I haven't driven a base or T 992 but the 991 T's engine was a total letdown for me. The rest of the car was great but to have a totally characterless engine like that base 3 liter was a disappointment. I know a lot of others disagree but that's ok. Engine character matters a lot to me and most cars these days with their basic 2 liter 4s, 3 liter 6s and 4 liter 8s are dull sounding and not fun at all. Sure they have power but I don't care about that. How that power is delivered is what matters. The GTS engine is powerful enough and different enough to make a big difference. I won't mistake it for an Alfa or Ferrari engine but it's good. There are nuances that some care for and others won't even perceive. That's my point.

Vicbastige

I thought the turbos on the T and Base were the same and the S was larger/boost. Did I have it wrong?

AlfaM5

My GTS is as basic as it comes. No options except for leather interior and big fuel tank. Manual, no sunroof, no front lift, no rear steer, no fancy seats, no folding mirrors, no 360 degree cameras. As such I feel it's what a modern 911 (GT models excluded) should be.

VarTheVar

I like the character of the T and base engine more as it feels more like an old school Carrera. They're not very fast and historically have not been, and you have to work for your power by revving it out. They feel as close to naturally aspirated as possible. The power delivery when you're doing canyon driving is superior with the smaller turbos. The S and GTS feel more like modern turbocharged engines which I don't like. So if I was speaking in the same terms as you, I would say the GTS is not very good, even though it has more power.

AlfaM5

I agree with your basic premise but for the fact that these modern cars have such capable chassis dynamics that for them to feel alive and work them as in the cars of past, you really need a bit more power. My premise is that a 991 or 992 chassis is not in balance with the power of the base motor. That motor is completely overwhelmed by the chassis to the point that for me, "working" the car kills the fun. A car designed to handle 5, 6 or 7 hundred hp just doesn't gel with that base motor is my point.

Just this past weekend I drove my son's 2002 Boxster S. Lovely car, lovely balance and I kept asking myself where the power was but it didn't matter. The car and the engine were one. Magazines at the time always used to write about how Porsche is holding back on the Boxster and that its chassis could handle a lot more. But the soft suspension, light weight and the 250 hp just worked well together. The 991T I tried to love never gave me that feeling. It kept telling me that something key was missing. GTS solves that. The sum of the parts work beautifully together.

VarTheVar

911s have been more chassis than engine for decades. I think the T has the ethos of a pre-turbocharged C2S. And the power of the current base engine has gone up commensurately with the grip level of the new platform to keep that perfect balance. It's just enough power. And the joy of a rear engine platform is all about being loose on corner entrance, not exit. That's how I like to drive and it fits what I want to be doing with the car. If I wanted to powerslide and be a hooligan I could get a tune but I think that would destroy the character of the engine so I don't think I'll be doing that. I'm good with the car as is. The only thing it really needs in my view is better dampers

jfb992

You are correct. From Flat 6 Motorsports. https://flat6motorsports.com/product...kit-992carrera

Wilder

So much nonsense here...

People on this thread who have owned many sports cars and have performance driving experience and therefore understand what makes a great road car, will never convince people who have zero performance driving experience and and are perhaps on their first Porsche or their first proper sports car that there is more to (car)life than having the car with the most horsies so you can stomp on the gas from red light to red light or on straight stretches of highway. It's Dunning Kruger. People assume they know until they actually go through the process of acquiring experience and then realize just how little they knew before.

On another note, there's a great thread on the "most fun car to drive". https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1352...-to-drive.html
Many people commenting there with a lot of experience. The consensus? Small, light, just powerful enough is the most fun. Go figure!

Taffy66

The essence of what makes a car fun to drive is not captured in having the maximum amount of power imo. There is nothing more frustrating than having to take your foot off the throttle after just a couple of seconds as your going at antisocial speeds for public roads. Nearly all twin turbo super/sports cars I have owned got boring after the initial feeling of endless power wore off. All were sold quite quickly for this very reason.
The 992T especially with Manual transmission is fun as the power delivery feels so much like a normally aspirated engine which encourages you to change down a couple of gears to get real poke , This is what makes it fun and not so frustrating to drive.
The complete opposite is true for a track car where you can never have too much power. I have a GT4 RS for that purpose which complements my 992T beautifully.

AlfaM5

The great thread you refer to talks about Civics and Miatas. Let's stick to 911s here and I guess current 500+ hp greats like the 997 4.0, 991R, 991/992 GT3 and 992 S/T are not some of the best and most fun cars to drive properly. Two different things. At the end they are all great. Buy what you want and enjoy it.

aggie57

Years ago a fellow I worked with was adamant that driving a go kart fast was simply a matter of stomping on the gas and steering. He had never driven one so we took him to the local hire kart place. He came last everywhere and changed his tune straight away.

Ikone

Agree here. That entire thread is people reminiscing nostalgically about the experiences they once had. But none of them probably own those cars today, instead own 911s not base Caymans. Just saying.