When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
@12v Nick Any update on the base audio upgrade kit?
We got through with our initial analysis of the car last week, and right now we're waiting on some parts to arrive so we can test the new harnessing.
These base stereo cars are vastly different than the previous generation, so there's a lot of new components we need to develop. In light of that, progress is a bit slower than I'd hoped, but we're still on track to have a solution before the end of summer.
If anyone want's be be added to the internal update list, just shoot me a PM with your info and email address.
Looking forward to what you come up with. Out of curiosity, was your development car a Carrera T or something else? I'm wondering how much of an impact the reduced sound insulation and lightweight and noise insulated glass of the T will have to the final outcome.
I have lots of thoughts and lots of conclusions. I need to do a long post on the topic, but a few things I THINK (not that I’m an expert).
It’s okay to want to enjoy tunes while driving sometimes (even most of the time), even if the engine sounds amazing.
The listening environment will never be good enough to justify a true high end stereo or big investment the way that you could rationalize $15,000 for a Cayenne upgrade.
The base stereo is objectively poor. There are some songs that sound passable, and it’s good for podcasts, but there isn’t balance or bass and the treble is abrasive (iPhoneish).
The amp is weak so any speaker solution will require some type of external amp, even if it’s paired with a sub box (and a bass ****).
A fully integrated and invisible solution that does not require cutting wires or adjusting things in the doors is expensive.
To my understanding, the PCM needs to be flashed to believe that either the Bose or Burmeister in attached to allow full control.
Replacing the front speakers requires the aforementioned external amp. Replacing in a removable non-destructive way means limiting your speaker choices to a small number of suppliers.
Bose has been fine for me in the past, not great, but acceptable. Given the choice I would have taken the cheap option of the Bose upgrade. Alas, not a choice on my T.
The Burmeister is pretty good, will show up on the sticker, may help resale, can be financed, and at $6,000 is pretty competitively priced. Better costs more.
Anything that you do short of a sub box with a bass **** (which I don’t prefer) will carry a pretty big labor bill. It takes expertise and time to do this correctly.
I decided to replace the front speakers and add a custom sub box behind the rear seat (that will cover the whole area and not be noticeable to the untrained eye). This will include a new 8-channel amp with DSP so that everything can be tuned together (including putting the tweeters on a separate channel). The speakers will fit without modification and everything can be removed later without anyone knowing that something was done. I’m using a shop that has done MANY 911s and was recommended to me by my dealer. My system is cheap by the standards of the shop, but I expect to end up with a better system than the Burmeister at approximately the same cost. Note that I am NOT doing a center channel and won’t be powering the rears (which I understand don’t really do much). Adding those two items would have required a 10-channel amp and increased the cost a couple grand. I don’t think that I’ll notice.
Again, my opinions based upon what I’ve researched, but I expect many people to disagree. Besides this being the internet, I don’t know that there is one true conclusion. As I shared, I would have optioned the Bose and it would have been good enough (had it in my last 992). If I planned to ever sell the car and were focused on resale, knowing now how bad the base is I would have probably optioned Burmeister. As it stands, pleased with the choice and can report on the quality once I have it installed Monday/Tuesday.
Good luck to everyone deciding on how to address (or not).
I have lots of thoughts and lots of conclusions. I need to do a long post on the topic, but a few things I THINK (not that I’m an expert).
It’s okay to want to enjoy tunes while driving sometimes (even most of the time), even if the engine sounds amazing.
The listening environment will never be good enough to justify a true high end stereo or big investment the way that you could rationalize $15,000 for a Cayenne upgrade.
The base stereo is objectively poor. There are some songs that sound passable, and it’s good for podcasts, but there isn’t balance or bass and the treble is abrasive (iPhoneish).
The amp is weak so any speaker solution will require some type of external amp, even if it’s paired with a sub box (and a bass ****).
A fully integrated and invisible solution that does not require cutting wires or adjusting things in the doors is expensive.
To my understanding, the PCM needs to be flashed to believe that either the Bose or Burmeister in attached to allow full control.
Replacing the front speakers requires the aforementioned external amp. Replacing in a removable non-destructive way means limiting your speaker choices to a small number of suppliers.
Bose has been fine for me in the past, not great, but acceptable. Given the choice I would have taken the cheap option of the Bose upgrade. Alas, not a choice on my T.
The Burmeister is pretty good, will show up on the sticker, may help resale, can be financed, and at $6,000 is pretty competitively priced. Better costs more.
Anything that you do short of a sub box with a bass **** (which I don’t prefer) will carry a pretty big labor bill. It takes expertise and time to do this correctly.
I decided to replace the front speakers and add a custom sub box behind the rear seat (that will cover the whole area and not be noticeable to the untrained eye). This will include a new 8-channel amp with DSP so that everything can be tuned together (including putting the tweeters on a separate channel). The speakers will fit without modification and everything can be removed later without anyone knowing that something was done. I’m using a shop that has done MANY 911s and was recommended to me by my dealer. My system is cheap by the standards of the shop, but I expect to end up with a better system than the Burmeister at approximately the same cost. Note that I am NOT doing a center channel and won’t be powering the rears (which I understand don’t really do much). Adding those two items would have required a 10-channel amp and increased the cost a couple grand. I don’t think that I’ll notice.
Again, my opinions based upon what I’ve researched, but I expect many people to disagree. Besides this being the internet, I don’t know that there is one true conclusion. As I shared, I would have optioned the Bose and it would have been good enough (had it in my last 992). If I planned to ever sell the car and were focused on resale, knowing now how bad the base is I would have probably optioned Burmeister. As it stands, pleased with the choice and can report on the quality once I have it installed Monday/Tuesday.
Good luck to everyone deciding on how to address (or not).
Can you share the components you used? What are you doing about the harness?
Looking forward to what you come up with. Out of curiosity, was your development car a Carrera T or something else? I'm wondering how much of an impact the reduced sound insulation and lightweight and noise insulated glass of the T will have to the final outcome.
It doesn't make much of a difference in our development since most of our testing is done in the shop with the car stationary and engine off. We do run a roadworthiness test once we have everything dialed in, and the test car we're working with is a GT3 Touring, so I think we're on par with the acoustics of the T.
Originally Posted by tarheeljim
I have lots of thoughts and lots of conclusions. I need to do a long post on the topic, but a few things I THINK (not that I’m an expert).
It’s okay to want to enjoy tunes while driving sometimes (even most of the time), even if the engine sounds amazing.
The listening environment will never be good enough to justify a true high end stereo or big investment the way that you could rationalize $15,000 for a Cayenne upgrade.
The base stereo is objectively poor. There are some songs that sound passable, and it’s good for podcasts, but there isn’t balance or bass and the treble is abrasive (iPhoneish).
The amp is weak so any speaker solution will require some type of external amp, even if it’s paired with a sub box (and a bass ****).
A fully integrated and invisible solution that does not require cutting wires or adjusting things in the doors is expensive.
To my understanding, the PCM needs to be flashed to believe that either the Bose or Burmeister in attached to allow full control.
Replacing the front speakers requires the aforementioned external amp. Replacing in a removable non-destructive way means limiting your speaker choices to a small number of suppliers.
Bose has been fine for me in the past, not great, but acceptable. Given the choice I would have taken the cheap option of the Bose upgrade. Alas, not a choice on my T.
The Burmeister is pretty good, will show up on the sticker, may help resale, can be financed, and at $6,000 is pretty competitively priced. Better costs more.
Anything that you do short of a sub box with a bass **** (which I don’t prefer) will carry a pretty big labor bill. It takes expertise and time to do this correctly.
I decided to replace the front speakers and add a custom sub box behind the rear seat (that will cover the whole area and not be noticeable to the untrained eye). This will include a new 8-channel amp with DSP so that everything can be tuned together (including putting the tweeters on a separate channel). The speakers will fit without modification and everything can be removed later without anyone knowing that something was done. I’m using a shop that has done MANY 911s and was recommended to me by my dealer. My system is cheap by the standards of the shop, but I expect to end up with a better system than the Burmeister at approximately the same cost. Note that I am NOT doing a center channel and won’t be powering the rears (which I understand don’t really do much). Adding those two items would have required a 10-channel amp and increased the cost a couple grand. I don’t think that I’ll notice.
Again, my opinions based upon what I’ve researched, but I expect many people to disagree. Besides this being the internet, I don’t know that there is one true conclusion. As I shared, I would have optioned the Bose and it would have been good enough (had it in my last 992). If I planned to ever sell the car and were focused on resale, knowing now how bad the base is I would have probably optioned Burmeister. As it stands, pleased with the choice and can report on the quality once I have it installed Monday/Tuesday.
Good luck to everyone deciding on how to address (or not).
You're not wrong. Not any any one of your bullet points. Albeit, some of them opinion — I still agree.
Good luck with your upgrade. Sounds like you've got enough knowledge to vet the shop doing the work, and you'll probably get a great result.
The most important thing I was trying to share is to not forget that whatever the materials cost, the experts (like 12v Nick) justifiably are a major part of the expense. That’s a good thing. Taking a $150,000 car and handing it over to my buddy or Best Buy would be insane. The research and prep has value, and people charge for that expertise and the time it takes to deconstruct and reconstruct areas where wires are run, etc.
On the wiring harness question, I get over my skis quickly. My understanding is that there is effectively a pre-out that’s used for the Bose/Burmeister amp that can be used to feed the added amp/DSP. All of the equipment I’m using for speakers, amp, and calibration tools is Helix (except for the sub which is JL Audio). Don’t know if that’s fully accurate or helps but I’m pretty useless at this point parroting what I think I’ve learned (or just been told). I understand Helix is pretty good quality, but just as importantly are plug and play for 992.
One note - I could have gone with the Focal limited edition speaker set that someone else purchased (the store I’m using sells Focal and that kit). However, I was told that using those speakers plus the amp it would take and an appropriate complementary sub would be over $12,000 installed. To my mind unjustified for this car, but depending on your budget and goals, may make sense for you. The thought was that those speakers are of such quality that you probably want to use them with an added amp of sufficient quality and with a sub (likely with its own amp) to complete the rest of the package. There’s obviously a cheaper version of that approach, but with labor and the supporting amp it’s definitely not just the price of the cool box and contents.
Take all this with a grain of salt and talk with folks like 12v Nick or someone you trust. You may be more willing to take the DIY risk than me also. Just trying to share my experience so that perhaps your questions take it to that next step of clarity or options.
.[/QUOTE]
One note - I could have gone with the Focal limited edition speaker set that someone else purchased (the store I’m using sells Focal and that kit). However, I was told that using those speakers plus the amp it would take and an appropriate complementary sub would be over $12,000 installed. To my mind unjustified for this car, but depending on your budget and goals, may make sense for you. The thought was that those speakers are of such quality that you probably want to use them with an added amp of sufficient quality and with a sub (likely with its own amp) to complete the rest of the package. There’s obviously a cheaper version of that approach, but with labor and the supporting amp it’s definitely not just the price of the cool box and contents.
I purchased the limited edition 911 Focal speaker set you’re referring to, then returned it for a refund after Focal themselves confirmed to me that the set was wasted if the amplifier wasn’t upgraded at the same time.
Also, while their speakers were ‘plug and play’, to upgrade the amp would require a specialist installer etc.
All in all I was looking at a lot more than a Burmester and I couldn’t justify that.
So I’m still debating the next step.
For what it’s worth, an incredible outcome for me. The sub box takes up the space behind the rear seats, so if you know the car you’d know it’s there. However it’s in the same black carpet as the car and there is a cover over the sub so no logo shows. Very stealth. Other than that, you’d never know anything was done.
While there are certainly better audio environments, I’ve never heard a factory system of any price in any car that sounds better. Doesn’t mean they’re not better, but I haven’t heard them. More than I wanted to spend? Yes. Better outcome than I expected? Yes. Think that I’ll listen to more music. Yes.
For what it’s worth, an incredible outcome for me. The sub box takes up the space behind the rear seats, so if you know the car you’d know it’s there. However it’s in the same black carpet as the car and there is a cover over the sub so no logo shows. Very stealth. Other than that, you’d never know anything was done.
While there are certainly better audio environments, I’ve never heard a factory system of any price in any car that sounds better. Doesn’t mean they’re not better, but I haven’t heard them. More than I wanted to spend? Yes. Better outcome than I expected? Yes. Think that I’ll listen to more music. Yes.
I had my consult today where we sat in the car, played some music and commented on what we wanted to improve. The base system is underpowered, has a lack of adjustability for the end user, and probably isn’t designed to do enough to isolate frequencies between the 8”, 4” and tweeters. We agreed to an incremental approach to getting better sound from it.
I will start with a hidden DSP 8/9 channel amp (Audison) to add power AND give the ability to tune it properly. We will see what we can accomplish with that and some tuning (what frequency goes to what speaker, delay, create the sound stage, rear speakers adding the right amount of fill, etc). The 9th channel can be used to add a sub later if we need it. Or possibly upgrade some speakers and retune. I’m still contemplating doing the sub in round one as I think the sub frequency depth could cover up a lot of other weaknesses and reduce the workload for the amp and the 8” woofers.
Once you’ve had the Audison amp installed for a couple of days I’d be curious to hear your opinion of it and whether or not you think it’s enough of an improvement on its own.
I suspect not! I think you’ll probably have to install a sub and probably upgrade the speakers too?!
That Audison amp is a good choice, gets really good reviews.
Where will you hide it, under the passenger seat?
Once you’ve had the Audison amp installed for a couple of days I’d be curious to hear your opinion of it and whether or not you think it’s enough of an improvement on its own.
I suspect not! I think you’ll probably have to install a sub and probably upgrade the speakers too?!
That Audison amp is a good choice, gets really good reviews.
Where will you hide it, under the passenger seat?
Yes, my installer has done 992s before and there is room under the passenger seat.
07-13-2023, 09:16 PM
