Share your manual shifting PDK experience
10-04-2022, 10:43 AM
#31
Racer
I've always had a connection to MT cars. Ever since I was a kid being in manual cars was always an exciting experience for me. I even remember always looking inside car windows just to see if there was a manual stick.
10-04-2022, 11:09 AM
#32
Like inthesticks writes, there are different ways to define "engagement."
The manual will be - by definition and incontrovertibly - more physically engaging than a PDK. You literally have to engage more of your brain, neurons, muscles, and joints by a manyfold factor. You literally do more physical "work."
I think that for many manual drivers (myself included), that work, that specific form of physical engagement with the car, is a non-negotiable part of the pleasure-driving experience; for these folks, the actual motions, the muscle engagement and muscle memory activation, the timing, the control of pressures and inputs, are intrinsic to that experience, it is part of what makes the experience what it is. It is part of what makes "driving," driving.
But we can also think of "engagement" in a more phenomenological / emotional way, as the feeling one gets when driving any wonderful car and being in tune with it, letting it become an extension of one's mind and body, experiencing / perceiving the world around him/herself and road ahead with heightened sensitivities and focus. For many, and from this perspective, a PDK might provide more "engagement," as the interface for control is drastically simplified, essentially "getting out of the way" of the "driving," and allowing the user to lose himself / herself more completely in the embodiment of the car.
Ultimately, I think there are a few categories of folks.
Some folks view the "work" of driving a manual as an essential part of the "driving" experience. I fall into this camp. This is the group that would rather get a Carrera than a Turbo because the latter doesn't come in a manual. For these folks, if the option is available and the use case merits it, anything other than a manual in a "sports car" is a non-starter.
Some folks don't like manuals, or feel they are cumbersome and impractical. They may find manuals a pain to drive in traffic, or consider them anachronistic. Why get old tech when "better" (i.e. newer) technology exists? The new tech is faster, easier to operate, etc. It lets them focus on "driving," or the use case is to wring out all they can from the car.
And there's the group that consider transmission choices as "options," treating the selection as they would a choice between leather packages or versions of headlights.
My own feeling is that the only reason to get a manual is if you fall into that first group in the majority of circumstances. If you don't, I don't see any reason for it.
But whatever!! Go with your gut! It's ultimately a question of interfaces, and which you prefer for bringing enjoyment. You'll get a wonderful car and have some amazing driving experiences. What luck to be in a place to be discussing the choices!
Cheers...
The manual will be - by definition and incontrovertibly - more physically engaging than a PDK. You literally have to engage more of your brain, neurons, muscles, and joints by a manyfold factor. You literally do more physical "work."
I think that for many manual drivers (myself included), that work, that specific form of physical engagement with the car, is a non-negotiable part of the pleasure-driving experience; for these folks, the actual motions, the muscle engagement and muscle memory activation, the timing, the control of pressures and inputs, are intrinsic to that experience, it is part of what makes the experience what it is. It is part of what makes "driving," driving.
But we can also think of "engagement" in a more phenomenological / emotional way, as the feeling one gets when driving any wonderful car and being in tune with it, letting it become an extension of one's mind and body, experiencing / perceiving the world around him/herself and road ahead with heightened sensitivities and focus. For many, and from this perspective, a PDK might provide more "engagement," as the interface for control is drastically simplified, essentially "getting out of the way" of the "driving," and allowing the user to lose himself / herself more completely in the embodiment of the car.
Ultimately, I think there are a few categories of folks.
Some folks view the "work" of driving a manual as an essential part of the "driving" experience. I fall into this camp. This is the group that would rather get a Carrera than a Turbo because the latter doesn't come in a manual. For these folks, if the option is available and the use case merits it, anything other than a manual in a "sports car" is a non-starter.
Some folks don't like manuals, or feel they are cumbersome and impractical. They may find manuals a pain to drive in traffic, or consider them anachronistic. Why get old tech when "better" (i.e. newer) technology exists? The new tech is faster, easier to operate, etc. It lets them focus on "driving," or the use case is to wring out all they can from the car.
And there's the group that consider transmission choices as "options," treating the selection as they would a choice between leather packages or versions of headlights.
My own feeling is that the only reason to get a manual is if you fall into that first group in the majority of circumstances. If you don't, I don't see any reason for it.
But whatever!! Go with your gut! It's ultimately a question of interfaces, and which you prefer for bringing enjoyment. You'll get a wonderful car and have some amazing driving experiences. What luck to be in a place to be discussing the choices!
Cheers...
If you have anything else to share related to this, please do, this is straight music to my ears. I appreciate this insightful conceptual analysis greatly.
Last edited by porschepath; 10-04-2022 at 11:19 AM.
10-04-2022, 12:14 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Hi everyone, I've been reading stories about whether to go with the PDK or manual transmission. It sounds like the 992 manual is really good. But, I have also read about people who have converted from being a manual purist to instead manual shifting the PDK (controversial?), claiming that it still provides a perfectly satisfactory engagement while driving, just in a different sense than manual without the downsides of manual, such as: heel toeing, not being able to shift during a hard turn, and fatigue. As someone who hasn't pulled the trigger on PDK or manual, I'd be interested in hearing those who have come to like or prefer manual shifting the PDK, or those who still believe in manual for engagement (who have given the manual shifting PDK a fair shot), and why.
10-04-2022, 03:25 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
100% in agreement. I never even considered a turbo or turbo S simply because I couldnt get the manual. Thats just my personal preference - the engagement factor (for me) is lost without 3 pedals in play.
I've always had a connection to MT cars. Ever since I was a kid being in manual cars was always an exciting experience for me. I even remember always looking inside car windows just to see if there was a manual stick.
I've always had a connection to MT cars. Ever since I was a kid being in manual cars was always an exciting experience for me. I even remember always looking inside car windows just to see if there was a manual stick.
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
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10-04-2022, 03:46 PM
#35
Oh man, you just reminded me of counting all the manual cars on my walk home from school every day, looking into each car. I'd try to 'profile' the cars and guess if they'd be manual or auto (this was the late 80s/90s so manuals weren't as rare and most cars could be either). I'd even set meaningless goals - eg to count 30 manuals, to correctly guess 10 in a row, etc...
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
10-04-2022, 04:02 PM
#36
Oh man, you just reminded me of counting all the manual cars on my walk home from school every day, looking into each car. I'd try to 'profile' the cars and guess if they'd be manual or auto (this was the late 80s/90s so manuals weren't as rare and most cars could be either). I'd even set meaningless goals - eg to count 30 manuals, to correctly guess 10 in a row, etc...
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
I plan on buying and driving as many manuals as possible and will likely always keep a manual car in my stable even when all mfgs have stopped making them.
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10-04-2022, 04:07 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Have posted this in the 991 forums but will recap.
I have owned Porsches since 1970. All were 5 or 6 speed manuals until my 2015 C2S. I hated that 7 speed manual. Too many gears, poor ratios with 3 overdrive gears. Clunky shifting at best. Traded it after 2 years for a 2017 C2S with X51 PowerKit, and PDK.
Love PDK! Always drive in Sport+ after warmup, and always shift it in Manual mode with my fingers. After 2 years moved up to a gorgeous Unicorn 991.2 Turbo with $46k in options. Love it.
The only time I switch to PDK Auto mode is when going to hit it hard from a stop or very slow speed. It hits redline so fast in 1st gear that is difficult to manually shift to 2nd at the right rpm.
No more manuals for me unless I could get the 911 of my choice with close ratio 6 speed. Not going to happen except for GT cars, and at 77 they are too harsh and spartan for me. I need options not available on GT cars. I'm spoiled now.
PDK is a manual transmission with dual liquid-cooled concentric clutches that shift virtually instantly with your fingertips. And those liquid cooled clutches can't overheat like the 3 pedal cars. No clutch replacements should ever be necessary with PDK.
I have owned Porsches since 1970. All were 5 or 6 speed manuals until my 2015 C2S. I hated that 7 speed manual. Too many gears, poor ratios with 3 overdrive gears. Clunky shifting at best. Traded it after 2 years for a 2017 C2S with X51 PowerKit, and PDK.
Love PDK! Always drive in Sport+ after warmup, and always shift it in Manual mode with my fingers. After 2 years moved up to a gorgeous Unicorn 991.2 Turbo with $46k in options. Love it.
The only time I switch to PDK Auto mode is when going to hit it hard from a stop or very slow speed. It hits redline so fast in 1st gear that is difficult to manually shift to 2nd at the right rpm.
No more manuals for me unless I could get the 911 of my choice with close ratio 6 speed. Not going to happen except for GT cars, and at 77 they are too harsh and spartan for me. I need options not available on GT cars. I'm spoiled now.
PDK is a manual transmission with dual liquid-cooled concentric clutches that shift virtually instantly with your fingertips. And those liquid cooled clutches can't overheat like the 3 pedal cars. No clutch replacements should ever be necessary with PDK.
Last edited by PCA1983; 10-04-2022 at 04:11 PM.
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lexbro (11-14-2022)
10-04-2022, 05:13 PM
#38
Oh man, you just reminded me of counting all the manual cars on my walk home from school every day, looking into each car. I'd try to 'profile' the cars and guess if they'd be manual or auto (this was the late 80s/90s so manuals weren't as rare and most cars could be either). I'd even set meaningless goals - eg to count 30 manuals, to correctly guess 10 in a row, etc...
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
today my incoming C4S in pdk is 3.2 to 60 while a manual gt3, with 60 more horse, does it in 3.7. assuming you are good.
what's a proper manual? autoblip? hill assist? i argue that these make the manual less enjoyable to drive. not to mention that a modern manual is 1st, 2nd, jail. my old british roadster was up and down 2-3-4 high in the rev range all day long. that was a lot of fun. those same roads in a gt3 manual are just 2nd gear roads. some may argue a proper manual is straught cut, no synchronizers. or maybe only a syncro on the 1 couple foward gears? sounds like all good scottsmen to me.
that said, i still get slightly more satisfaction from a manual. however that satisfaction is fleeting becuase cars today are too powerful and gears are too long.
10-04-2022, 06:11 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
What? Automatics in the 90's, early 00's and older are nothing like they are Today. While the manual has largely stayed the same in terms of engagement the auto box has evolved into an entirely different beast. 5.0 mustang fox body with 4 speed AOD anyone? nope. 5 speed was a must to enjoy that car and many others of the same vintage or older. Same can't be said Today. The modern DCT is outstanding. It's almost an extension of you, immediately responding to your needs/wants. I agree with the excellent post above. They are both great and engaging, it's just about how you define as engaging.
Here is what my 4 favorite cars have in common:
Now get off my lawn!
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10-04-2022, 07:28 PM
#40
Racer
Oh man, you just reminded me of counting all the manual cars on my walk home from school every day, looking into each car. I'd try to 'profile' the cars and guess if they'd be manual or auto (this was the late 80s/90s so manuals weren't as rare and most cars could be either). I'd even set meaningless goals - eg to count 30 manuals, to correctly guess 10 in a row, etc...
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
I still don't really understand the people who claimed to enjoy manuals in the past but then completely switched to PDK/DCTs when those came out. I thought all 'manual people" were like me and would not see any value in PDK/DCTs but it turns out I was in the minority and a whole bunch of manual people were more into the notion and the 0-60 bragging rights of manuals rather than the actual experience.
It's sad to see proper manuals inevitably dying off as more and more people accept (sometimes happily!) DCTs and electric cars but at least my cars still have more pedals than doors... And I hope I can keep it that way until I die.
10-04-2022, 08:22 PM
#41
We make a tune for the PDK2 that takes it up a notch from the factory, it's even more fun in manual paddle mode.
-Charles@M
-Charles@M
I would definitely be interested in your PDK tune.
Do I have to buy the stage 1 flash first?
Also, with your tune, is the paddle to shift time and the overall shifting speed as instantaneous as the GT3, 4RS, 3RS etc?
I have a base 992 cabrio with no sports chrono.
thanks
Last edited by Pcar81; 10-04-2022 at 08:45 PM.
10-04-2022, 08:27 PM
#42
I’m gonna go against the grain here.
I have a PDK in my base cabrio, and while the shift speed in auto mode is pretty quick, the manual mode is lethargic especially in normal mode.
Hell, the paddles in wife’s NX 300 are snappier than normal mode in my car and almost as fast as sport mode.
Very disappointing in a 140k car
I guess I’ll have to have it tuned by M engineering.
I have a PDK in my base cabrio, and while the shift speed in auto mode is pretty quick, the manual mode is lethargic especially in normal mode.
Hell, the paddles in wife’s NX 300 are snappier than normal mode in my car and almost as fast as sport mode.
Very disappointing in a 140k car
I guess I’ll have to have it tuned by M engineering.
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M Engineering (10-04-2022)
10-04-2022, 09:18 PM
#43
I am a diehard manual lover who just loves the art of shifting gears. When I went to my Porsche dealer to get on the list, I was given a PDK base to test drive. I was bored driving the PDK and thought to myself this car would be great with a stick.
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10-04-2022, 09:30 PM
#44
I've had a few manuals in my (considerable) time: 3 Corvettes, Ford Capri, Nissan, Ferrari 330GTC, several Bimmers. I never quite mastered heel and toe to perfection, but I learned to extract performance while preserving the clutch. But the PDK is telepathic in its operation. Cruising and it's just a great automatic that squeezes MPG. Track it and you're always in the perfect gear. You can just paddle for a downshift or push the M button and emulate Max. Jack and Master of all trades. My BMW manual coupe is almost 12 and still a joy to drive. The wife has NEVER driven it (and she learned to drive manuals on a 1965 Corvair 4-sp), she loves her auto. Funny thing, she wants to drive the Porsche. That's not a bad thing ...
10-04-2022, 09:47 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Love some of the thoughtful responses. I consider my self a purist. In fact i had never (age 50) owned an automatic until my Jeep SRT.
I bought a 992 GTS in the spring with MT. After years of learning to heel tow (still poorly on the track) I never thought I would demean myself to use autoblip. And I really wanted to have the MT experience and learning on the track.
CONFESSION TIME: I think Autoblip is awesome. Why fight the technology? Its fun. You drive like a hero. Yes you forget how to rev match really fast...but so what the autoblip keeps the car balanced when you are driving hard and let's you build other, arguably more relevant skills around entry and exit. Its super fun around town too. HOWEVER, I drove a PDK a few times back to back on the track and to my surprise was 100% SOLD on PDK for the track. You have less bracing in the seat without a harness, you can set up for your turns better. everything about it is faster. Yet you still have the engagement of shifting the gears. Just not with your left foot. This personal experience was unexpected but I loved the PDK for the everything other than the shifting driving experience.
MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION:
- I traded my GTS for a GT3 allocation this spring and spec'd the GT3 with PDK. For sport driving its better in every way.
- I would prefer MT all day long on the street and around town. If you are not trying to hit every track day you can for your season I would prefer the MT.
As others have said totally personal. But there is seriously no bad choice here.
I bought a 992 GTS in the spring with MT. After years of learning to heel tow (still poorly on the track) I never thought I would demean myself to use autoblip. And I really wanted to have the MT experience and learning on the track.
CONFESSION TIME: I think Autoblip is awesome. Why fight the technology? Its fun. You drive like a hero. Yes you forget how to rev match really fast...but so what the autoblip keeps the car balanced when you are driving hard and let's you build other, arguably more relevant skills around entry and exit. Its super fun around town too. HOWEVER, I drove a PDK a few times back to back on the track and to my surprise was 100% SOLD on PDK for the track. You have less bracing in the seat without a harness, you can set up for your turns better. everything about it is faster. Yet you still have the engagement of shifting the gears. Just not with your left foot. This personal experience was unexpected but I loved the PDK for the everything other than the shifting driving experience.
MY PERSONAL CONCLUSION:
- I traded my GTS for a GT3 allocation this spring and spec'd the GT3 with PDK. For sport driving its better in every way.
- I would prefer MT all day long on the street and around town. If you are not trying to hit every track day you can for your season I would prefer the MT.
As others have said totally personal. But there is seriously no bad choice here.
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